Cinema 121m40

The Great Pretender: An Interview with Willem Dafoe Author(s): Gary Crowdus, Richard Porton and Willem Dafoe Source: Cinéaste, Vol. 31, No. 4 (FALL 2006), pp. 40-47 Published by: Cineaste Publishers, Inc Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/41690401 . Accessed: 06/12/2013 19:38 Your use of the JSTOR archive indicates your acceptance of the & Conditions of Use, available at . http://www.jstor.org/page/info/about/policies/.jsp

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The An

Pretender:

Great Interview

by Gary

Crowdus

with and

Willem

Richard

Dafoe

Porton

"0 ZT O O
thefilm'smoralcenter. suchdisparate as DustinHoffman , MichaelCaine, is unquestionably foran Dafoewasnominated filmactors Actor inPlatoon, which Awardas Besting traditional bound- Academy Willem traverses iïttd Lemmoriy /acfc up opened Dafoe 'moviestars'and 'character - andhissubsequent .' Lemmon limitless Like ariesseparating actors , intriguing, almost opportunities forhim cinema's mostunprechoices madehimoneoftheAmerican viaBroadway, the lyeclectic Caine,andHoffman waytoHollywood foundtheir the dictable actors. British andOff-Off-Broadway. circuity Dafoeis certainly repertory view as first major filmstarwithroots " Dafoe's" onaofacting in experimentaltheater. pretending grandscale, as a as wellas hisexperience theoftenhermetic Although in and out of disguise for directors Slipping a ensemble theatrical theconcerns part of ofavant-garde and such as David Lynch, Martin Scorsese wherehe was neverbilled to atermight seemantithetical abovethetitle, nodoubthelped the comthepreoccupations of Oliver Stone, and for films as different as a kindofcinemathimbecome mercial cinema, Dafoealways and Light Sleeper, Willem Dafoe ic chameleon.Innocentof thathisworkwith Spider-Man emphasizes movie-star andalways TheatreX, theavant-garde pulls back the curtain on his art and craft. egotism chaltotakeon acting heedafter willing troupe graduattheUniversity lenges, Dafoefoundthatmany ofWisingfrom directors wereeagertoworkwithhim.To wit,AlanParker Schechner's a brief withRichard ,a consin, groupin NewYork leading sojourn a typically nuanced notknown elicited withTheWooster hislongassociation and, mostimportantly, , director perforforhissubtlety, Group thebookFBI agentinMississippi mancefromDafoeas a rigidly an idealgrounding byfora filmcareer. provided toseij-ejjacUnlike many Americanactors, {i^ööj; nisamiixy Burning GeneHackman'smore in thepsychological intricacies trained ingly play off of ' theMethod makeshisinterpretavolatilecharacter ,' Dafoe's tasksat The - takingon multiple, AlanWardsomething tionofstolid WoosterGroup Agent In a completely tourdeforce. roles,interacting ofa low-key demanding physically - required vein with himtobe , Dafoe'sinterpretation of different filmandvideo inMartin Scorsese's TheLastTemptaorclownas a mere as muchofan athlete Jesus this iconic tionofChrist text.Infact, (1988)recast figure, interpreter ofa playwright's in biblias blandly heroic theater's often depicted experimental for preference calepicssuchas TheKingofKingsand emotion exteriorizing givesit a curious EverTold,as an allTheGreatest totheattention toprecision and Story affinity neurotic theater. Neverthetoo-human, occasionally protagcraft foundinclassical onistwhosemoralanguishmadehis less themes , thecountercultural explored allthemore eventual martyrdom moving. byThe Wooster Groupwerefarfrom Part the classical anditsuninhibited, Dafoe's of funofassessing yetrigorous, hisintensely careerinvolves bothDafoe's esthetic nodoubtinfluenced contrasting withthecraft as wellas concern (thatnever performances go-for-broke ofacting in crossthelineofbeingover-the-top) his fearlesswillingnessto accept a - whether vilfilmssuchas Wildat Heart(1990)and panoply ofroles unsavory ShadowoftheVampire(2000)andthe lainsorsuaveleading men. when he demonstrates In hisearliest took greatrestraint films,directors Paul other build and elasin, films, required among advantage ofDafoe'swiry Schrader'sLightSleeper(1992) and ticfacialfeatures andcasthimas charishis Tom & Viv (1994).Atoneextreme, maticthugs inTheLoveless(1983)and ofFire(1984). Yetbythetime Streets portrayal ofBobbyPeru,thestrangely whoappears nearthe in charming psychotic Dafoeplayed^awilycounterfeiter endofWildat Heart,proves William Friedkin's To Liveand Die In compelling is entirely becausehiscreepiness L.A.(1985),itwasclearthathewasan congruDavidLynch' s cockeyed entwithdirector talented actorwiththeability enormously in vision.Similarly toresist Withhispiv, hisMax Schreck rigidtypecasting. the because he Shadow convinces otalbreakthrough roleas theearnest plays Sgt. as a manlacking starofNosferatu EliasGrodinin OliverStone'sPlatoon loopy DafoeinMiss Left toright, KateValkandWillem in whose the extent (1986), self-irony lifefusesseamlessly ofDafoe'sversatilityUniversal between a 1985collaboration Happiness, becameevenmoreobvious.Although TheWooster impersonation ofa Theater withhiscinematic andOntological-Hysteric Group ' theintrospective ©PaulaCourt). In contrast, Sheenistheostensible Charlie 'star,Elias (photo vampire.

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inOliver Stone'sPlatoon Willem Dafoewasnominated foranAcademy Award forhisportrayal ofSgt.EliasGrodin (1986). of Cineaste:Suchas sounddesign? protagonists ofLightSleeperandTom & Viv belongtoa gallery - forsomeofthe consumed withself-doubt. His T.S. Eliotin Brian Dafoe:Sure,sounddesign,butalso thecamera Dafoecharacters recorded Gilbert's sinceitwouldhavebeentemptingpieceswewouldhavelivevideoandsometimes video,and filmisespecially impressive orplaywiththeimage, soyoustart to makethesnobbish, chilly poetintoa thoroughgoing prig.Dafoe we'dhavetolinkup,manipulate a machine, becomes likea technician. Thecamera, instead mansinternal tofunction your givesa sympathetic rendering ofthisrepressed - a somewhat thankless tasksincethe"Viv"ofthetitle(Elioťs partner. You'repartofa largercreative thingand I thinkthatis strife isdepicted andMiranda good trainingforfilm.For me,the moreyou can thinkthat as a protofeminist victim first wifeVivienne) Richardson's received thebulkofcritical showy performance plaudits. everything's yourjob, thebetterit is foryoubecause,giventhe In recent an even more nature of whatyou thinkis importantis neverwhat's has as film, years, idiosyncratic Dafoe emerged aboutis oftenthemost character thecomicallyimportant actor, from [Laughs],andwhatyouforget moving vertiginously impersonating intheworld.Ifwewereshooting insecure FirstMatein WesAnderson's The LifeAquaticwithSteve important here,forexample, thing thananything we do,andifwe Zissou(2004)toa dimbutamiablecopin SpikeLee'sInsideMan thatchairmaybe moreimportant then Presidential Assistant inAmerican Dreamz embrace thatas partofourworld, as partofourresponsibility, (2006)toa KarlRove-ish toseizeunexpected inthefollowing that, interview, (2006).It'snowonder opportunities. Dafoeexpressesyouhavea greater possibility hisiration character actors ontheorder Cineaste: Whenyou workwithThe WoosterGroupdon'tyou forversatile, unpretentious Alec tomoretraditional Guinness and Boris thebodyas opposed acting approaches, of Karloff. emphasize Cineaste interviewed which emphasizes DafoeinNewYorkCitylastMay.In between suchas theMethod, psychology? I comefroma tradition whereyouthinkof hegenerously minutes withusdiscussing his Dafoe: Definitely. filmprojects, spentninety You're evolution as a performer and hisionate interest in the yourself asanartist andnotsomuch asanactor. you personal making things, - Richard technical aren'tinterpreting Thishashelpedmedevelopa sensibility Porton aspects ofscreen acting. things. in a dancer, thanan ofbeingmorea performer, a pretender, whohasa method. Cineaste:You'vesaidthatyoudidn'thaveanyformal as an interpreter, a grandoldactor, orsomeone training butyou're oneofthemosttalented andversatile actors at Cineaste:A senseofphysicality ismoreimportant actor, clearly foryou? and but a kindof practicality work sohowdidyougettothatpoint? Dafoe: Not just thephysicality today, WillemDafoe:I didn'tgo to schoolforit.Mypathto actingwas directness. Formosttheater-trained actorsfromthetraditional in careerissues, in therespect Ifyouthrow nottraditional itwasa dayby school,actingis aboutinterpretation. that,whenI started, I neverhad an ideathatthisis whatI thenitbecomesaboutpersonality, too.ittedly you'rebuilding day,weekbyweekactivity. but withpersonas whenyou'rein a theater woulddo allmylife,at leastnotuntilI diditenoughandI said"I andplaying company, I'm primarily indissolving Becauseyou're interested intothething. guessthisiswhatI do."Thatsoundsa little coy,butit'strue. I beganwitha smalltheater Theatre it'snotaboutyou,it'saboutthethingyou're X, fortwoyears makingsomething, company, I started before withTheWoosterGroupin 1977.It was making. Youbecomeit. working tomakemyliving Cineaste:So thework islessego-driven. timeI started training bydoing.Thatwasthefirst Italsointroduced metoa group ofpeople that hada self-managedDafoe:Lessego-driven or personality driven, yes,that'stheidea. acting. thattiidoriginal meabroadforthefirst Therearelevelsofcorruption, ofcourse,butthere'sa difference work,andbrought company a circuit is alwayssatisfying, thatI later endeduptraveling withTheWooster between andexpectation. time, Aspiration traveling aspiration becauseyouhavea notionofa So itwasa significant is alwaysdisappointing Groupforthenexttwenty-five years. beginning. expectation areofarriving Cineaste:Didyoufindexperimental theater tobea particularly good placewhereyouhaveto go and whattherewards I feelstronger there,and that'susuallydrivenbyego.Ironically, training ground forfilm? and Dafoe: Yes. Notjustexperimental Thisis whereI think theaterbutmorespecificallywhenI getawayfrommyself. performing and about The WoosterGroup,because we embraceour use of making is somesortofsublimated impulse, spiritual anything I think see the rather than hide and I think that makes camera when lose can it, picture. you bigger technology you you yourself you that Youlearntolovetechnical itmakesyouaccept getmorepracticeat thatwhenyou'rein a theater limitations, company friendly. themas things toguideyou. creates itsownpieces.

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he One oftheproducers thissenseofgetting someof der-Man. Cineaste:Regarding said,"Withthatgapinhisteeth, awayfrom yourself So theygave be a CEO in a bigcorporation!" havebeenthosewhere couldnever [Laughs] yourbestand mostmemorable performances - in Shadow of the mesomecapstoputon myfront teethso I'd looka bitmorecrediyou'vehad extrememake-upor costumes becauseitgavemea or Wild at or in Heart, type.Thatchangedthings Vampire, Spider-Man.Thatelement of ble as a corporate I'm always smile that became a to the character. certain kind of seems , key you. ofphysical transformation important for disguise eachtime. fora character andit'sdifferent becauseyoulookin themirror and looking forthe'triggers' Dafoe:Yes,youforget yourself itis,I start so youhaveno allegiance toprotect this Whatever "OK,I'mthisguy." bysaying, youdon'tlooklikeyourself, itallowsyouto act Cineaste: AroundthesametimethatyoumadeShadowofthe ideaofwhoyouare.It allowsyoutobe foolish, TheHairy onstageinEugene O'Neill's out,ina veryliteral youwere performing way,in someoneelse'sname.I findthatwitha Vampire, the between isthat Ape,andI wondered maskyou'reina safer ifyoufeltsomesortofconnection place.Themostimportant thing strong it enablesthatqualityof 'beingthere,'a heightenedlevel of expressionism ofO'Neillandthe.. . ofYankhas an The character WhenI havea mask,itjustopensmeup topretendingDafoe:Yes,I thinkso. Absolutely. engagement. kind Therewasa certain tohim,andso doesSchreck. in a purerway.Allthings thatareworthdoingcomeoutoftrans- animalquality and and a certain kind of I takeon a wholenewset ofanimal-like as wellas somesortofrestraint. formation beastiness, smelling tasting thatI wasprobably ofSchreck, whichhelpeddefinethecharacter ofobligations, whichI discover, andthatgivesmegreatenergy. atthanifI hadn'tdoneTheHairyApe. Forexample, I'mlearning Italiannowbecausemywifeis Italian. morepracticed roles where I'll ask,"Comesi dice" suchand sucha word,or I'll ask herto Cineaste:Whatdoyoudoforthose youdon'thaveextreme Whatdo andyoulookmoreorlesslikeyourself? ora costume explainan Italianword,andshe'llsay,"Youdon'thaveit in Eng- make-up tobuildorcreate lish."As an actorsometimes yourcharacter? youhaveto findnewwaysandsome- youlookforinthewayofsomething So ifyou Dafoe: UsuallyI attachmyselfto thestoryor thecharacter's timeslanguage andgestures occurthatnormally wouldn't. AlltherolesI've done,ofcourse,areme,or different to the to the to the to the occupation. giveyourself language, game, pretending, Who funofit,to thecostume, it opensup something newto you.You aspectsofme,butI likethisideaoflosingyourpersonality. is dealing withthe'Whatif?' havea little windowofrebirth andyoucanwalkin a different Pretending way youareis nota fixedthing. on stillindialogwithyourself, butyou'relessfocused ina different You'realways andthink way. onwhatyou'redoing. andmuchmorefocused MaybeI gotmyheadtoomuchinthecloudsbutthisis allrealto whatyou'reshowing A goodexample wouldbe myroleas a drugdealerinLight me.I'm so overinterviews, butI washappyto talk Sleepquitefrankly, I couldhave andI talklikemyself. withyouguysbecauseI liketo thinkaboutwhatthepatterns are, er.In thatfilmI looklikemyself I alsohada no reasonwhyI couldn't. tome. beenthatguy,I meanthere's andwhatthings andmeansomething keeponreturning Theguywasvery different from modelforthecharacter. Cineaste:So muchofan actor's work isinstinctual thatit'snotalways real-life me,but I what fed the of those two was to articulate the combination even someone who's talented , pretending. things easy, for extraordinarily to concentrate howthey dowhatthey do.Butgetting backtoShadowofthe alsohadtheprofession on,beinga white-collar drug precisely well![Laughs] howtofoldcocainebindlesreally toa certain extent on dealer, so I learned Vampire, youhadtomodelyourperformance and things I'm attracted to thingscloseto myexperience Max Schreck' s appearance in theclassicF.W.Murnaufilm.Sinceit very wasa silent the foreignto me. It's no accidentthatI've done a lot of location , youwerecompletely film,however freetointerpret movies. Becausewhenyougosomeplace character's voice.Whatwasyourthinking aboutthat ? foreign yourhabitsarenot andyouremake Dafoe: That was verytied to the accents,whichisn't totally ed yourlife.I madea filmin byfamiliarity basedona PearlBuck calledPavilion so youinventan idea.I did go to a dialectcoach,very China,forexample, scientific, ofWomen, I wastheonlywhite a Chineseproduction, andto findsomesortoflegitimatenovel.It wasbasically briefly, justto geta consistency so in baseforit.He didsomeresearch formeandfoundsome Westerner there,and in thestoryI playa missionary priest, regional situation tosupformyreal-life I do an accent, caseslikethatI hadan opportunity modelsbutmostly it'san invented accent. Whenever I really tomea famwhen someone thefiction. thatfitstheaccent,so thatguidesme. port proposes limp goa little myvoicefindsthe AndI hadfunny so thatalsoaffected mevocally. teeth, vampire ilydramathat'sgoingto be shoton soundstages.It'slike,"Whoa, tome![Laughs] Doesn'tsmelllikefilmmaking." Therewasa similar it'sa minorthing, on Spi- smellslikeacting example, although

neurotic InMartin Jesusas anall-too-humanf Scorsese'sTheLastTemptation ofChrist Dafoeportrayed (1988), occasionally protagonist. ofPhotofest). (photos courtesy

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Astheyoung, FBIagentAlanWard, Willem Dafoemorethanheldhisownagainst themoreexperienced by-the-book ofPhotofest). Southern lawman Anderson inAlanParker's (GeneHackman) (1988)(photos courtesy Rupert Mississippi Burning Cineaste:Youreportedly dontliketodoresearch aboutacting andthey're muchcontent toletyoudoyour foryourroles. nothing pretty Dafoe:I do,butI don'tnormally liketo talkaboutit.Sometimes I ownthing. don'tfeeltheneedtodo research I do a lot. atallandsometimes Dafoe:You saidit,I didn't![Laughs]I thinkthenotionofactorCineaste:Presumably sometimes thelocation, suchas Morocco inThe directordialogbeingthemainactivity always duringshooting, LastTemptation takesto ofChristorAuschwitz inTriumph oftheSpirit, discussing motivations and psychology, goinga hundred Thisprobably serves as a trigger refinea performance, createswrongexpectations. foryouas well Dafoe:Huge,huge,becausethere collaborations have before You comes from distorted anecdotal stories about it, you. great you right - and the havethesekindofprofound, mysterious thingsthatinspireyou, Kazan-Brando,Scorsese-De Niro, Herzog-Kinski whether inthestory ornot.Formethemaking ofa movieis mythologizing of theMethod,but mostof thetimeit's more they're better thanthemovie.In Auschwitz, forexample, I hadthis practical thanthat. always moment I wassitting where outina yardoutsideofthestillexisting In myexperience whilethey themostaccomplished directors, barracks andI sawa treethat'satleastsixty finda wayto introduce yearsold,andI thought, can be personaland intimate, youto the "Oh myGod,whatthistreehas witnessed." It soundslikea real worldofthemovieandsetyouoffinthatworldandthenthings crebut there have it is their own If and the ate a set is crackpot thing, you propsand proximityeverything. logic. beautifully designed, Whenyougetcloseto thosethings, arebeautifully thecasting is right, thecamerais selected, theystartto infect you,not costumes withtruth orauthority, buttheyengageyouto cometogether with intheright is clear,somehow place,andthestory youknowexactly thoseartifacts to makea thirdthing.So I lookforthosethings whathastobe done,andyoudon'tnecessarily havetotalkaboutit. whether inMarty's it'sa building, ora tree,orthelocalpeople,orwhatever TheLastTemptation wasso realized headthat ofChrist tolee,tomakeanimpression onme. we shotit quitefast,withouta lot of discussion. Or takeDavid Ofcourse, I wanttoavoidanyimpressions sometimes outsideof Lynchon Wildat Heart.He's warm,veryintellectual and a real thestory. On TheLastTemptation for the to the set he's artist. When direct and andhe Christ, example, biggest of youget very practical wastocleanse ofexpectations. Wehaveso muchcultural givesyoua greatsetupbutactually talksvery little. thing myself aboutChrist thatI wanted toforget becauseI didn'twantto I'mverydependent on thedirector. Notso muchtotellmewhat baggage haveanopinion. I canonlydo Youdon't want tobindyour your judgments imagination.to do, butto setthetonefortheproposedactivity. Cineaste:It musthavehelped thatScorsese's enormously wayifit'snotmydream.I attach filmwasnot whatI wantto do in a inspired a traditional taleofChrist.Kazantzakis's novelwas diametricallymyself to someoneelse'sdream.Theirdreambecomesmydream. totheclichés biblical becomesmystory. opposed ofthetraditional Hollywood epic.You Theirstory playedJesusnotas a spiritualbeingbuta humanbeing,a very Cineaste: On a continuum, fromsomeonewhogivesyoulotsof where doyou direction tosomeone whogives nodirection, troubled, possessed personality. youvirtually Dafoe:MartinScorsesepresented it to me as a human,everymanfeelmost comfortable? It wasalsoa veryreactive character. I triedto see andlisten Dafoe:Itdepends. Sometimes sometimes Jesus. youneed youneeda little, andallowthestory to happento me.Notall rolesallowyouto do a lot,youneedto be watched. You maybe offtrackoryoumaybe to inhabit doingsomething thatneedstobe guidedandthedirector that,ofcourse,becauseat thesametimeyouaretrying mayhave theroleyoualsohavedramatic andmayhavetodriveor to keeppushingyou awayfromyourtendencies. You do make obligations deliver certain comesin,and choicesand sometimesthosechoicesare made withlimited story points.That'swherethedirector wheretheactorhastobe responsible whenthedirector butthedirector hastheoverview. You know,what says,"Look, understanding we gottaaccomplish whichisoften thecase. this,"andyouhaveto takethaton as one of feelsgreatmaynotworkgreat, or one ofyourtasks.Thatdoesn'tnecessarily thosewithsomekindof work Cineaste:I've heardsomeactors, yourrestraints especially even Method talkaboutbeing"inthe of classical or againstyourperformance, thoughyou're thinking experience, " training "Oh I acting thatstands outsideoftheexperience. nailedthatone." zone,orthey'll something say, , really - andyouveworked Cineaste:Speaking withsomeofthe Dafoe: I hatethat.I despisethisnotionof "nailing"something ofdirectors - I think best a lotofpeoplewouldbesurprised I knowwhatthey're tolearnthatmany becauseit'san impossibility. aboutbutI talking directors aren'treallyskilledat working or precise withactors.Theyknow thinkit createstheideathatthereis a correct or finite

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search,butthePlatoon placeto arriveat. Butit wasspecial. preparation doesn'texist.There'sno Forthatmoviewehada suchthing.The beauty bunchof Vietnamvets of filmis thatit means lead by Captain Dale to difdifferent things ferent Dye whofeltmisreprepeople.Saying"I sentedbypopularculsound makes it it" nailed tureabout something I likeit'sa competition. that they had been let'snot understand that, So theyhad a a combe idiots,there's through. stakein training terrific petitivequalityin anyus and havingus look, skill.I thatinvolves thing act,and feelas muchas seeinga movwe could like real solI that actor ie withan As an actor,itwas diers. don'tusually appreciate, becausewehad a dream but I thoughthe was I Then in movie. veryconcrete that something great to do. We had a skill,a saw an interviewwith himon TV whereheput wayof being,to learn and they made their down the movie. So muchfor"nailingit,"I experienceavailableto us and put so much for it Nailing thought. on us. Froman who? pressure "In thezone" I unactingstandpoint,bea Dafoeportrayed onlocation, wasfilmed which wasso oftheSpirit causethematerial (1989), a littlebitbet- inTriumph derstand ofPhotofest). toAuschwitz withhisfamily courtesy boxerdeported - once again, Greek-Jewish (photo loaded to that means I think ter, about'trigwe'retalking be freeofa certainself- yourenevergoingto havetheauthority ora and to havetheworlddropaway.You can havea gersandauthority consciousness somesort it,butyoucanatleastgothrough andknowthatyou'reinthesceneandstillbe vetwho'sbeenthrough doubleconcentration, it.It wasgreatforthat.It thatapproximates thebestplaceto be, as a balance.I ofparallelexperience in thescene.That'sprobably in a veryshort a lotofthings and accomplished thinkwhensomeactorstalkabout"thezone,"that'sthekindof wasquiteintense ofdana of us a It of time. amount camaraderie, in when about feeling gave feeling they're they're movement, talking placethey're to do of of a us it forward. sense have the and feel can something inept, having being feeling fluid, gave ger, they're going things they itwassetting Cineaste:After up an ambushor goodatyet,whether LightSleepercameout, SusanSarandonsaid"she thatweweren't at a Is the moment "in were withyoubecause likedworking night. moving throughjungle always you meetontheset thatactors Cineaste:Peoplemayhavetheimpression thata similar experience? butit or about their notes methods, and There are to so.Youlikeforuninvited Dafoe:I think training acting compare things happen. comes never one of if it ain't but "in the be who to of moment," up. probably try plenty people ourexperience andverytight. Dafoe:Never.I findthat,whenI do talkwithactors, 'their'moments, theycanbecomeveryponderous different is we how and on what's of of because As a waves. about wildly Likea surfer actor, things approach going younger beingfussy becausethereis verylittle I thinkthisis partly I'mlesslike andwildly wasmuchmorelikethat.I think I probably personal. earnestness, actors. formostAmerican andexperience intraining isa greatcompliment. thatnow.Butyes,Susan'sstatement uniformity Cineaste: Youseemto Cineaste:Notto browwith havea goodrapport toomuch, beatdirectors butwouldyoutalkabout HarveyKeitel,who'sa actor. Method someofthebestorworst very true. That's Dafoe: had you've experiences . Obviously withdirectors People havetheirown bootcamp themilitary ways,in theendthey're all tryingto getto the thatOliverStoneputyou sameplace,and ifyou and the other actors canmeetthereitdoesn't through forPlatoonhad matterhow you got tobea uniqueexperience. % there. Dafoe:Itwas.I methim Cineaste: When we thinkand I interviewed Kenneth met I've never "God, ing, about he talked a guylike this in the Branagh, thechallenge He was moviebusiness." ofdirecting castofactors, an eclectic scrappy,he was pashave who widely varying he had this sionate, story that he was dyingto experiencesand apfromclassically proaches, make,and that'swhatI trained British stage lookfor.I liketo attach stars. toHollywood actors to someonethat myself that In a Dafoe: to country feelslikethey're going tratheater has a strong explode.I likepersonal likeGreatBritain, dition, filmmakers. thereis a degreeofuniActors are always Willem Peruterrorizes villainous butthorougly Dafoeas thecharismatic Bobby The in training. of Photofest). at Heart Wild in David re(1990) courtesy about their Lula (photo formity (LauraDern) Lynch's talking

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- "theAmerican truth is thatintheAmerican didI so muchinformation availablethat,ifyou approachedit as a system system," that? a director has to invent or finda wayto dealwith detective, whathe wasworking on,whathis justsay youcoulddetermine eachperson, whereas whenI workedin England, theattitude was personalconcernswere,whathis hourswerelike,whenhe was on lads."Thatis,thedirector's attitude at thebank,whathe did in hissparetime,wherehe was more,"Carry is,youknow working whatyou'redoing,I knowwhatI'm doing,so let'sgeton withthe having whathewasreading. Itwasreally incredible. dinner, tothatprofessionalism butsometimes itcloses Cineaste:It'sclassic job.There'sa beauty backstory stuff. I thinkthat'swhy,whileBritish downcertain actorsare Dafoe: Fantastic.Now normallyI'd say thatyou can'tplay impulses. revered fortheirconsistency andgreatskill,there's tobe backstory, butin thiscase itwas so richitwasfun.Someofthis something - suchas theobjective saidforsomeAmerican actorswhodon'thavethatsametechnical theoretical stuff correlative andcertain things - is fantastic skillbutwhohavea 'funk.'You know,thestruggle is sometimes aboutpersonality and objectivity and meansa great moreinteresting thanthepolish. dealto me.Likehistalking aboutpoetry notas a letting ofemotion Cineaste:Towhatextent doyoufeelyourperformance but as an from emotion. depends upon escape orinteraction Cineaste:It'sa challenge goodchemistry for withyourcoperformers? Your an actortoplaysucha re"I find that with a strong mask you're character. pairingwithGeneHackman pressed in MississippiBurning, Dafoe:Tom& Vivwasalsoa for in a safer place. The most important thing casewhereI wasplaying the , madefor a parexample that quality of 'being there/ combination . is that it enables manto a beautiful, ticularly strong straight The relationshipbetween central woman's sympathetic a heightened level of engagement. When thosetwocharacters role.Another beautiful really thing I have a mask, it just opens me up to struck aboutthatmovie,was that sparks. " Dafoe: The importance of once again I was the only in a purer way. pretending can't be overstated. Yankeein thisveryEnglish casting In the case of Mississippi world.You go toward somethatwas a greatroleforGeneHackman,who'sa great bodyelse'sexperience, someoneelse'sunderstanding, whichis not Burning, actor.I thaton thepage myrole didn'tseemthat onlyenriching foryourself, butitgivesyoutheenergy, thespark, butI likedthedirector AlanParker, thescript, and,being thatdrives interesting youtotellthestory. a hugeGeneHackman formetowork Cineaste:Sincethefilmisadapted a London fan,I sawitas anopportunity from stage playbasedon withhim.You'rethereto playa foilfora greatactor,andthat'sa interviews withVivienne'syoungerbrother , it's clearlymore whenyou'rea youngactor.It becamebetter sympathetic toherplight. Infact, it greatgig,particularly giventhesexualpolitics ofthefilm, thanthatbecause,on onehand,I hada greataffinity withhimin seemsevident, thelastthird thefilm,thatTomis the especially by of - in ofexperience, 'villain' of thepiece.Of course,as an actor,you don'twantto in otheraspects certain whereas aspects, - wecouldn't sohowdoyoudealwiththat? allkindsofthings be more consciously age,celebrity, background, playa villain, different. the the role became moreinterestingDafoe:Well,I'd almostbe gladto say,"Vivwasa realpainin the Through shooting thanI expected. assi"[Laughs] Themovieandthestory arebuiltveryclearly forher Cineaste:Following Itbecomesan indictment character. ofhowwe up onyourdiscussion ofthevocaltechnique for to be a sympathetic I waslooking at Tom & Viv dealwithanysortofmental illnessanditalsotakesa swipeatthose yourroleinShadowoftheVampire, methatyoumusthavelistened tothe kindsofpeoplewhohavebeenanointed as geniuses, whileall the dayanditstruck againtheother worth peoplearoundthemareleftin thedust.Thoseareall things recordings ofT.S.Eliot. Dafoe:I did.I've stoppedreading reviews butI alwaysexploring, and it'sfairto do itwiththisstory, butis itthetruth? thatAnthony Lane reviewin TheNew Yorker to my Maybe.Is he thevillain? Asfaras Yes,in thispiece,he'sthevillain. referring I playingvillains...youknow,frequently "curious Boeraccent." To myearsI soundedlikeT.S.Eliot;infact, in thoseinterviews I'm embraced lessandlessfond mimicry. getting Cineaste:Anthony Lane of, one of the first is presumablyan auquestions usually is, on such things like thority "Whydo youalways becausehe'sEnglish. But toplaythevillain?" Eliotwas an American Cineaste:It'snottrue. in who Dafoe: It's not trueat living England anEnglish all.ButI getworndown accent, affected sohewouldhavesounded question, bytherepeated a little so I kindofthrow strange. up my Dafoe: You say thatI handsandcomeup with don'tdo research, answers butI myprogrammed dida tonofresearch on about howit'smorefunto Tom & Vivbecause it playthevillainand to was so richand so avexploreyourdarkside ailable.You had all the Butthe andallthatstuff. truthis, a villainis debiographies, youhadthe criticalrecord, finedby how he funcyou had the letters,and a very it'sa tionsin thestory, well-documented timequestionofstoryplaceline. And one of the ment.Whotheyareand coolestthings is thatwe how I'm approaching wereshooting in a lotof theroleis a completely theactuallocationsof different thing. the storyand I pretty Firstof all, it's conmuchvisitedall of the Willem ventionalwisdomthat inShadowoftheVampire which re-creates Dafoeas MaxSchreck (2000), ofPhotofest). youcan'tjudgea characofF.W.Murnau's silent Nosferatu classic, courtesy (photo placeshe lived.There's theproduction

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subtext tertoplayhim,butI'llgoevenfurther thanthat.Asanactor,I don't Cineaste:Forscenesofthatnature , is thedramatic actually whenI'm in theprocessof spelled outin thescript, ordoesMaryHarron wantto judgeanything. Forexample, givethattoyou,ordo Balejustplaythedialog ? andI'mtrying tolisten toyouandI'mtrying toconvey how youandChristian talking, - inthiscase I feelaboutsomething, I'm notnecessarily decisions about Dafoe:I think youjustplaythesceneandthedirector making - wantsto see whatyoudo, so if backto Mary,whoI thinktrustsactors whoyouguysare.I'm surethereareexceptions, butgetting tweakthe toactions, andhaving whatsheneedsisn'taccomplished, thenshe'dprobably thisnotionaboutan actor'sdesiretocommit I mean,that'sa greatmovie, andyourquestion isa goodone, thestory unfoldandeventshappen,I don'tengagein thatkindof actors. I wantto bethe buttobe honestI can't. Therealstory isthatwhenthings I don'tmakethosekindsofdecisions. reflection, whodidwhat. It'sthedirector's toputyouonpaths toserve thestory. workwellyoudon'tnecessarily story. responsibility ForallofmyhighIn someplacesyouknowyouhaveto accomplish certain interesting. things, Butthisdoesrelateto something a villainbecauseyou're mindedaspirations tobe really instinctual andlikean animalrather so ofcourseyouneverthinkaboutplaying in thescene.MostWestern in the thana cerebral theeffects ofthings, sometimes or approaches, personcalculating actingtechniques thedirectors mostbasicway,dealwithpeoplejusttrying togetwhattheyneedsays,"Look,thisis whathappensin thisscene.You So youtakethatinformatheirpsychology, theirmotives. What'sgoodor what'sbad,then, havetoplantthisormakeittransparent." inyourheadas the tion an action on where while and, depends you'regoingthrough you'resitting. inanother beWildat Heart,where character, Cineaste:A goodexampleofthismight partofyourheadyouknowyouhavetomake inthe boththings. You can'tgettoo Peruisa villain buthehasenormous charisma technically Bobby film. thestoryclear.You haveto finesse insideof outsideofit,butyoualsocan'tbe so deeply Da foe: I thinkhe has charisma becausehe's so deeplya villain! heavystanding is andwhatyouhave aboutwhatthestory He'slikea sourceofnature, there's no apology, andthat's itthatyougetinflexible [Laughs] what'ssobeautiful inthewriting. toaccomplish. Cineaste:Asyou'vegainedmoreexperience Cineaste:He'sa realDavidLynch character. , and as you'vegotten lessons learned aboutacting? Dafoe:He'sa realDavidLynch character buta lotofthatalsocomes older , whatarethemostimportant you've I A lotofhis Dafoe:I think themostimportant is flexibility. from whowrotethenovelitcomesfrom. Gifford, Barry thingI'velearned to each time to back the features who are but love them. believe that beginning. people repulsive you truly you'vegot go writing Cineaste:Fromhisfirst entrance. him. You'vegotto trickyourself. EventhoughI've doneitmanytimes ,youcan'ttakeyoureyesoff time.You're thefirst Dafoe:He's nota particularly reflective character andhe is deeply before, dayon thesetshouldfeellikethefirst "Howdo I do this?," "Do I knowhowto "Whatis this?," mean.He's justtrying to scratch an itch.There'ssomething very thinking, I invite butatthesametime humanaboutthat,andI thinkwe respond There'sa lotofpressure. to itbecauseitis more do this?" that, I mean,ittakes you'vegottofinda balancebecauseyoucan'tletitparalyze humanthana kindofcold,calculating you. personality. - youhavetobe fullofjudgments. somecalculation tobe a prick Justas you'reverywiseto saythata lot ofpeoplemistakenly workwellwithactors, Cineaste:Youhada relatively smallroleas a detective or believethatall thegreatfilmdirectors , onlythree really butI thought werea fascinatingin thesamewaypeoplewouldbe shockedat howmanypeople , inAmerican fourscenes Psycho, they twolinesofdialogand catandmouse character There wasalwaysthisimpression foryearscan't ,from who'vebeenacting study. inPatrick sometimes thattheyappeartobe outoftheirminds, Batemans , thatyouknewmore areso nervous yourvery office first meeting a scenelikethey're thanyouwereletting on... andtheylookatyouduring goingtohavea heart to get I think It can be harrowing, it's important Dafoe:Right. wetriedtoaccomplish that.[Laughs] attackor something. thosejitters On theotherhand,youwelcome Cineaste:I watched theDVD againrecently and there's onedeleted relaxed andconfident. orthebiggest fearisthesenseofbeingcomscene scenesbetween , whichservesto kindofcap theprevious you, becausetheworst thing overitall. where ina barandyoujokeabouthow pletely youmeetBateman informally sometimes havean urgetoconfess. Cineaste:You'vesaidthatyourbestworkcomeswhenyou'reunsure suspects Dafoe:You know,thatsceneprobably wherethemovie ofyourself when when balance, you're you're terrified. happened off I waswatching a television showrecently and hadbuilta momentum andtheyfelttheydidn'treallyneedto go Dafoe:Absolutely. backandpayoffthatdetective character. StevenSpielbergwas sayingthathe triesto keephis actorsoff

Willem as poetT.S.Eliot, starred withAmanda whoportrayed Eliot's Dafoe, Richardson, ofPhotofest). inBrian unstable wifeVivienne Gilbert's Tom& Viv(1994)(photo courtesy emotionally Haigh-Wood,

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intheater visititagain.Whereas withthematerial for you'veworked a longtime,you'vedoneit overandoverandoveragain,andthe amount of refinementand practiceis so different. So the howyoureanimate different it,isa totally process. performing, One of thegood thingsaboutbeinga theateractoris thatit in thesceneandkeepitfresh allowsyouandtrains youto reinvest forfilmactorswhodon'tworkin evenwithrepetition. Sometimes whenthemoment's theater, gone,it'sgone,andtheycan'tretrieve it.On theotherhand,thenatureoffilmactingis thatpeoplewith andcandeliver fanmayhavegreatscreenpresence verylittlecraft tastic performances. a lotaboutdirectors Cineaste:We'vetalked , butas a filmactoryour theeditor andeven workis alsoat themercy ofthecinematographer, thecomposer. Arethereinstances where youfeelyourperformances havebeeneither enhanced ornegatively bytheworkofthese affected willuse Forexample , presumably youhopethefilmeditor craftspeople? takes. best your whatmybesttakesare.I onlyknowwhenI don't Dafoe:I forget menuts,for with other theymake.Itdrives typesofdecisions agree and whenthemoment hasedona take,butthey example, linger cuton thelongside,or theyhaveso manyeditsin thescenethat to occur.Andofcoursemoviesare thereis no timeforanything soyou'reawareofthosekindsofthings. overscored, " Cineaste:Howwould youdefinegoodscreen acting"? Willem DafoeandSusanSarandon white-collar portrayed drugdealers Dafoe:A formeis a performance thatjustis.It ofPhotofest). goodperformance inPaulSchrader's courtesy Light Sleeper(1992)(photo andit'sgotbreath, air.Asanaudience invites theaudienceingently - butifI canseeit,it I don'tlikevirtuosity. Skillis a beautiftil thing comeoutofterror. He's right, takesmeout balance,becausethebestmoments ofthemovie.MaybeI'mjustenviousor competitive, becausewiththatkickthere's an eventfulness anda commitment to but someof are bynonprofessional myfavorite performances themoment self-consciousness. without are not just actors!I findthe mostbeautifulperformances Cineaste:Areyouthesortofactorwholikestogetitdoneonthefirst understated - an actorlikeAlecGuinness can butalmostdisappear take towarmupanddofiveorsixormoretakesso do that.I alsolikea lotofB-movie , ordoyouprefer suchas BorisKarloff or actors, youcanexperiment? and WarrenOates- there'ssomething practical, private, deeply Dafoe:Thiswholequestion fascinates mebecauseeachactorhasa aboutthem. generous A different lot has to do with the with the approach. relationship mesomefilms ofPietroGermi, Giadahasrecently beenshowing " director. to sayeither, , likeSeduced "Ok,basta Theyhaveto havetheauthority think Stefania and Abandoned. don't People necessarily - unless or to say,"Let'sgo again."Generally everyactor speaking, She'smyidea is a greatactress, butI thinkshe'sfantastic. Sandrelli theyhavea kindofincredible professional prideofhaving'nailed ofheaven.Butthoseareperformances thatyoufind, theydon'tfind it'- alwaysfeelsthattheycan do it betterand wantto getmore Forme, I likethatkindof- whatshallwecallit?- availability. you. material totheeditor. Someactors, sometimes, including myself get that'swhatgoodscreen ask is- something thatisanddoesn't acting andbeg,"Onemore?One fortoomuch.Ithaslesstodo withskillthanwhere puppydogeyesandlookat thedirector theactor'simagmore?" is placed.Withcertain actorsyoufeelthey're inationandattention I liketheaccident saidthat,sometimes ortheenerNow,having - withan eagerness to please,needy itfortheaudience really doing rehearse gythatcomeswithjustdoinga fewtakes.Somedirectors becauseI feel I hatemyself whenI getthoseimpulses performances. on filmand somedon'tshootuntiltheyfeelthesceneis ready. thatI'm not I'm separating from to theoverall, myself contributing Sometimes is theworldofthefilm. youdo a lotoftakesbecausethedialogor blocking or thelightor thecamerais readjusted. Butifyou'renot Cineaste:Thereareso changed aboutactingbut theories manyhigh-flown I sayyoushoulddo itandoughttolive when boilitalldown doingthatkindoftweaking saidatone , as I believe , isn'titsimply you've you withit. andpretend? version thechild's time ya grown-up dress-up of game of I likeit,however, whenyougettheshotquicklyand thenthe Is that itdowntoomuch? willsay,"OK,nowlet'sdo one forthefunofit."Then,if Dafoe:dumbing director andto makesomething No,butit'sa hugething, simpleis newandhe or shecanbuildon it,that'ssome- sometimes yougo someplace intheworld.I don'tmeantosay themostdifficult thing else.Someactorsaregreatatthat,but,forme,thefirst takeis that thing thatwe all know.On one actingis simple,butit'ssomething whenyou'rereallytrying to accomplish it,and,ifyou'veaccom- hand, isa capacity it'sverymysterious and,ontheother, pretending or showing off.Theactor that plishedit,thentherestis kindoffiligree to andinthatsenseit'snotspecial.Surrendering has, everyone shouldn't beincontrol ofhowmanytakesyougo!(Laughs) thepretending is special.It'slikesaying, "OK,we'regoingtotakea Cineaste:Someofthebestanecdotes aboutfilmmaking involve the moment out fromlife,we'regoingto puta framearoundit,and number oftakes. and we'regoingto makesomething outofit."It'sreally primitive Dafoe: I don'thavegreatexperiencewithdoinglots of takes, beautiful. to reach,to I believeit'sverycloseto a spiritual impulse whether on independent moviesor on big-budget movies.Evenon togetintothathumthat'sgoingonallthrough yourlife getbeyond, bigactionmoviesyoudon'tdo thatmanytakesbutyoudo lotsof andto enterintowhatis essential without anduniversal measuring different becausethecameracoverage I tendstobe excessive. set-ups init,orclinging toit. it, didthismovierecently withmywife,director GiadaColagrande, sitting withTheoAngelopouTheotherdayI wasreading an interview whereitwasalllong,longtakes.I lovedoingthat,actually, because los wherehe "I likeFaulkner's wordswherehe says,'The explains, ofthediscipline itrequires andyoucontrol more. yourrhythms worldwascreated to be a novel.'So in mycase,I believetheworld Cineaste:Thatapproach moreclosely theater approximates acting, wascreated tobe a film." doesn't it? ■ I feelclosetothat. Dafoe:Thereareso manydifferences. You know,on a filmyou this interview. for incoordinating showup,youoftenstartandfinish a scenethesameday.Neverto Thanks toGary Lucas andKaren EideHaney help

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