Etymology Of The Word Rice ocp

Appandai Raj

Latin words from Tamil...??? Is it accepted that the Latin word Oryza and English word Rice are from Tamil Arisi...??? Even I suppose English Ginger comes from Tamil Inji...???

21/12/2008 Ramakrishnan What is the earliest attestation of arici in tamil? When did tamils start to pronounce 'c' as 's'?

23/12/2008 Appandai Raj C and S The pronounciation of c and s has no difference,... Even in English 'rice' and 'rise' are pronounced as same... Arici and Arisi has no difference in pronounciation....

24/12/2008 Unceasing C and S Ramakrishnan is talking about Cha and Sa Sa and Sha are the Grantha inclusion into Tamil to accomodate Sanskrit loan words. To understand whether Arici Rice) and Inchi (Giinger) were introuduced to the Romans from India or did they directly go from China? To understand this we have to see the earliest references to Rice and Ginger in Dravidian literatures and others. Chai as used for tea is directly decended from the Chinese Tche. In Tamil it is Thea and it is Tea in English. The Tea example is used here as to give an idea of how Thea and Tea are more closely resembling, but Tea came to South India through the Europeans. Simillarly the use of the word Pariah as a synonym for untouchable/ outcast is used more often than necessary but in Tamil it meaans a drummer but in Hindi it will mean the "others" ( Apna - Paraya). The context used for Pariah in the lexicon is to denote an outcaste person. But in Tamilnadu it wiill not be used in the context of an outcast except by colonised, immature politician like Subramani Swamy. That is why one has to look at many other things when dealing with linguistics.

25/12/2008 delete

இரவி/రవ/Ravi "When did Tamils start to pronounce 'c' as 's'? " Tamils pronounce unanimously ch as ch and s as s according to common rules. They never pronounced pachai as ai. They pronounced always Arisi as Arisi. K,Ch,T,Th,P have duel sounds nature according to usage. Nakam will be pronounced as Nagam and likewise, ch,T, Th, and P. But in Sanskrit Ri and Lu which are supposed as vowels are sometimes modified as consonants. e.g. NiRithi as nairuthi aakaara (Skt)= (masc) form, shape aakritiini (Skt)= forms. In English too, the consonant "c" is pronounced as k, s, ks (vaccine), sometimes as ch.

25/12/2008 ಸುಮಂತ Sumanth I was beginning to wonder about words like 'Selva' in Tamizh becoming 'Cheluva' in Kannada. Kannada, AFAIK doesnt display the ch <-> s interchangeability. Telugu, in areas of Tamizh influence, also seems to posses the ch <-> s interchangeability - E.g: "Em chEsEdi/ Em sEsEdi".

26/12/2008 Nrupatunga I was beginning to wonder about words like 'Selva' in Tamizh becoming 'Cheluva' in Kannada. Kannada, AFAIK doesnt display the ch <-> s interchangeability. Telugu, in areas of Tamizh influence, also seems to posses the ch <-> s interchangeability - E.g: "Em chEsEdi/ Em sEsEdi". No,Even kannada shows the ch->s behaviour but rarely. Ex: sanke a tooll used to dig mud is referred as chanke by my friend who hails from arisikere. I hearing few more such examples,but unable to recollect them.But my point is that even kannada is not completely out of this behavior.But this behaviour is not universal among all kannada dialects.

26/12/2008 Ramakrishnan Tamils pronounce unanimously ch as ch and s as s according to common rules. Tamils have used the phonemes ch (ச) and s (ஸ) interchangeably, since medieval times. In old tamil, only the phoneme ch was recognized. Perhaps this has been the case for certain regional dialects of telugu and kannada as well. A good example of this confusion exists in the words tiru-chentur (location) and sentil (deity

of the location, a name for skanda). Originally the words would have been (tiru) chentur and chentil. However due to this cha/sa confusion chentil also came to be pronounced as sentil. Tamil does not have any native sibilants (sa, sha, śa) which are there in Sanskrit. So there cannot have been any native words where the original pronounciation was sa! For these native dravidian words which are pronounced as 'sa' in tamil, it has to be only cha originally. They never pronounced pachai as ai. Agreed. Not all words had suffered this change. That much is certain. They pronounced always Arisi as Arisi. I am bound to think that since Arisi could not have been a native pronounciation (because of sa), and also because "arichi" is also ruled out, it was not a tamil/dravidian word to begin with. It may have been a greek word (oryza) imported into tamil at a time when the cha=sa conversion was already in place in tamil. Nakam will be pronounced as Nagam In Skt it is nakham. In tamil, it gets converted to the nearest phoneme (as there is no kha). Thus in written tamil it is nakam, while in spoken tamil it is nagam. If you see the ka, kha, ga... order; it is interesting to note that the kha becomes ka in written tamil and ga in spoken tamil, while the original is kha. But in Sanskrit Ri and Lu which are supposed as vowels are sometimes modified as consonants. They are not sometimes vowels and sometimes consonants. The vowels ru and lu are separate from the consonants ra and la.

28/12/2008 Srikant They never pronounced pachai as ai. Agreed. Not all words had suffered this change. That much is certain. Words with cc and with n~c (alone) have not suffered this change. For example, an~cutal, mUccu, etc. Words beginning with c are also pronounced with "c" rather than "s", like "collu" (tell), by some people. These might have been "protected" by the conditional doubling done when writing: "adaic col" (tell that), for instance. (This doubling is probably done to keep the consonant from being voiced, but for c, it's done more preserving.) Words in which -c follows a vowel, like icai, arici, pEcu, pAcam, (music, rice, talk, affection/attachment) have all suffered this change.

28/12/2008 delete

இரவி/రవ/Ravi "A good example of this confusion exists in the words tiru-chentur (location) and sentil (deity of the location, a name for skanda). Originally the words would have been (tiru) chentur and chentil. However due to this cha/sa confusion chentil also came to be pronounced as sentil"

As i said earlier, it is due to and as per grammar rule and restriction only. "Tamil does not have any native sibilants (sa, sha, śa) which are there in Sanskrit. So there cannot have been any native words where the original pronounciation was sa! For these native dravidian words which are pronounced as 'sa' in tamil, it has to be only cha originally" let it be. however, (sa, sha, śa) surely not sanskrit patented one. moreover they are not at all necessary in Tamil. words starting with śa are rare not only in Tamil but also in other dravidian languages, (cf. in sanskrit, No words start with thha (Th varga 2 letter). "I am bound to think that since Arisi could not have been a native pronounciation (because of sa), and also because "arichi" is also ruled out, it was not a tamil/dravidian word to begin with. It may have been a greek word (oryza) imported into tamil at a time when the cha=sa conversion was already in place in tamil". it is clearly mentioned in oxford dictionary as origin of oriental origion. origin is al(small things)-A:kam (grain=Tamil)-(nut is big one compared to grain) a:kam->Akkam (grain=Tamil) al->(ar)->ari (rice = Tamil) ari-arisi (rice = Tamil) arisi- rice , O.Fr. ris, It. riso, L. oriza (cf. It. riso), Gk. oryza "rice," risotto rice cooked in broth with meat and cheese, 1884, from It., from riso "rice" (see rice). ari ->vari(rice = Tamil,Telugu) Vari->varagu (varagu Rice=Tamil) Varagu->(Veragu)->vireegi (rice = Tamil) Vireegi->Vreehi (rice=Skt), Pashto vrize, O.Pers. brizi (z=h natural changes) Vari->(VaRRi)->Vatham (Paddy), Pady (rice in the straw=Malay), Paddy (English இரவி/రవ/Ravi "But in Sanskrit Ri and Lu which are supposed as vowels are sometimes modified as consonants. They are not sometimes vowels and sometimes consonants. The vowels ru and lu are separate from the consonants ra and la. " then pls explain these modifications. NiRithi as nairuthi aakaara (Skt)= (masc) form, shape aakRitiini (Skt)= forms. kRipa->karpanya MathRu (-bhasha)->Mathrika

31/12/2008 Ramakrishnan How about vrihi (skt) --> vari-hi (telugu) --> ari-si (tamil) --> ari (malayalam) Telugu lost the final hi while in tamil it became si. Tamil lost the initial v retained by telugu. Malayalam displays both characteristics.

31/12/2008

Srikant @ பாவாண ர In Sanskrit, the following sandhi rules apply: u + a = va, i + a = ya, similarly we also have a + R = ar. If the vowels u and i can be called complete vowels even though they can transform into consonants, so can R.

01/01/2009 delete

இரவி/రవ/Ravi "How about vrihi (skt) --> vari-hi (telugu) --> ari-si (tamil) --> ari (malayalam) Telugu lost the final hi while in tamil it became si. Tamil lost the initial v retained by telugu. Malayalam displays both characteristics" That is totally obscure. For the sake of argument, if I am wrong, Pls tell me, what is the etymology of Vrihi in Sanskrit? From which, and how it was derived. Vrihi form is not at all attested in IE languages. But Arisi form is found in IE languages (oryza and not vriha)

01/01/2009 delete

இரவி/రవ/Ravi "If the vowels u and i can be called complete vowels even though they can transform into consonants, so can R. " Except sanscrit, consonant transformation into vowels is unaware in other languages. ha ha.

01/01/2009 Aniket Sengupta# topic starter orza is rice in latin (oryza sativa) but ginger is ZINGIBER in latin(zingiber officianle)

1 Jan

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இரவி/రవ/Ravi http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=ginger&searchmode=none ginger O.E. gingifer, from M.L. gingiber, from L. zingiberi, from Gk. zingiberis, from Prakrit (Middle Indic) singabera, from Skt. srngaveram, from srngam "horn" + vera- "body," so called from the shape of its root. But this may be Skt. folk-etymology, and the word may be from an ancient Dravidian name that also produced the Malayalam(i.e.Tamil) name for the spice, inchiver, from inchi "root." Cf. gin (v.).

1 Jan Unceasing Rice and Oryza Ravigaru said: ari ->vari(rice = Tamil,Telugu) Vari->varagu (varagu Rice=Tamil) Varagu->(Veragu)->vireegi (rice = Tamil) Vireegi->Vreehi (rice=Skt), Pashto vrize, O.Pers. brizi (z=h natural changes) Vari->(VaRRi)->Vatham (Paddy), Pady (rice in the straw=Malay), Paddy (English) It was a very nice and easy way to trace the metamorphosis of Arici from Varagu and the corruption from Varagu to Vreehi. Ramkrishnan said : that I am bound to think that since Arisi could not have been a native pronounciation (because of sa), and also because "arichi" is also ruled out, it was not a tamil/dravidian word to begin with. It may have been a greek word (oryza) imported into tamil at a time when the cha=sa conversion was already in place in tamil. How could the buyer of Rice from Greece give a name to a product of the producer? China and India and the Southeat Asia has been the Rice bowl of the world and it can only get corrupted from Asian name to a Greek one and not the other way round. But I do agree that words can be introduced the native from a foreign influence like 'Saatham' is used for cooked rice in Tamil, it is Chooru or Sooru. People tend to use Saatham more than Chooru in Tamil but in Malayalam Chooru is used though it has more Skt. influence.

2 Jan Srikant I think that in 'arici' and such words, the original pronounciation for c would have been j, which is a close relative of g. This is from extrapolating the norms for k, T, R, t and p.

3 Jan Ramakrishnan The etymology for arisi is most clearly attested in Tamil itself. 1. விரகி Viriki (from vrihi), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgibin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.12:1:1587.tamillex 2. Then விரஇ virIi (also from vrihi), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-

bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.12:1:1634.tamillex 3. Finally வர vari and அர ari. Vari also means tax (in olden days the kings used to levy tax as a part of rice harvested by each farmer), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgibin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.11:1:5138.tamillex Thus it is clear that the dravidian words for rice originates in vrihi Ramakrishnan It may be true that oryza is derived from ari/arisi, but ari/arisi itself is derived from vrihi (see above post)

4 Jan

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இரவி/రవ/Ravi "2. Then விரஇ virIi (also from vrihi), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgibin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.12:1:1634.tamillex" as already said, the Madras Tamil Lexicon was codified by some Tamil ignorant people. in the cited website விரஇ virīi , n. < vrīhi. See விரகி, 1. நஙைக மார விரஇ யறறவர (சீவக. 89).. the meaning of virīi is not rice but expansion. that poem states about breadth of chest alone not the rice. what a quote?

4 Jan

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இரவி/రవ/Ravi "3. Finally வர vari and அர ari. Vari also means tax (in olden days the kings used to levy tax as a part of rice harvested by each farmer), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgibin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.11:1:5138.tamillex Thus it is clear that the dravidian words for rice originates in vrihi. " வர&sup7; vari , n. < அர². cf. vrīhi. Paddy; ெநல. (பிங.) எடததவர மறததினிலிடட (தனிபபா. i, 354, 41). cf in that citation means comparision(a latin word) and not derivation. moreover in that citation, taxation based upon rice is not meant for. So according to you, rice harvest is the basic reason for taxation. if so, south India esp Tamil Nadu alone is named for rice cultivation as against Wheat of North India. The Madras Law lexicon is codified illogically by Vaiyapuri Pillai and several Particular community people who know nothing about Tamil etymology (hearsay recording).

4 Jan

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இரவி/రవ/Ravi வர&sup7; vari , n. < அர²

in your citation, it is clearly shown that the word வர (vari) is derivied from அர² (ari). but according to you, from the word vari is derived from அர²(ari). which one is correct according to you?

5 Jan (6 days ago) Ramakrishnan So according to you, rice harvest is the basic reason for taxation. if so, south India esp Tamil Nadu alone is named for rice cultivation as against Wheat of North India. Erroneous presumption, rice cultivation was highest in the Indo-Gangetic plains in the past, it also spread to south-India. Wheat cultivation in Punjab and surrounding regions (instead of rice) is of recent origin.

5 Jan (6 days ago) Ramakrishnan Vireegi->Vreehi (rice=Skt), Pashto vrize, O.Pers. brizi (z=h natural changes) Word-final gi cannot change to hi in sanskrit. But hi definitely could (and did) change to gi/ki in dravidian (specially tamil). Examples: Drohi (skt) --> turoki (tam) = cheater Deha (skt) --> tEkam (tam) = body Vrihi (skt) to brizi (OP) is proper. Also note vrihi must have been pronounced in sanskrit originally more like warihi/uarihi (this is how it is attested in pali) and not as vrihi (which is how it is written in sanskrit today) So at once it is clear how this warihi became vari(si) and vari(ki).

5 Jan (6 days ago) delete

இரவி/రవ/Ravi "Vrihi (skt) to brizi (OP) is proper." for the sake of argument, let it be. then how Vrihi was derived in Sanskrit. (if you can't you can avail help from al(small things)-A:kam (grain=Tamil)-(nut is big one compared to grain) a:kam->Akkam (grain=Tamil) al->(ar)->ari (rice = Tamil) ari-arisi (rice = Tamil)

from the words A:kam->Akkam, Akki (kannada word for rice) was derived. do you say that word "akki" also derived from Vrihi. but that is also not correct.

6 Jan (5 days ago) Ramakrishnan Akki (kannada word for rice) was derived. do you say that word "akki" also derived from Vrihi. but that is also not correct. The most probable etymology for akki (meaning rice) in Kannada is Varihi --> variki --> ar(i)ki --> akki then how Vrihi was derived in Sanskrit. I dont know. Perhaps from proto-munda or Indus language?

6 Jan (5 days ago) Nrupatunga Varihi --> variki hi-.ki change looks unlikely.also kannada has the habbit to change from va-ba and not va to a. So i am doubtfull about this change.

6 Jan (5 days ago) Ramakrishnan hi-.ki change looks unlikely It is very widely attested in Tamil, and since kannada (and telugu) adopted the phoneme set of sanskrit after their split from tamil, we can unfortunately only use tamil for explaining the change from hi to ki. Kannada wouldnt have had that necessity since hi exists as a distinct phoneme in kannada. Therefore the change from varihi to variki must have preceeded the kannada-tamil split. ಸುಮಂತ Sumanth Ramakrishnan wrote: Also note vrihi must have been pronounced in sanskrit originally more like warihi/uarihi (this is how it is attested in pali) and not as vrihi (which is how it is written in sanskrit today) So at once it is clear how this warihi became vari(si) and vari(ki). The more I look at how words look in Samskrita and their transformations (or derivations, if you please) in Pali, I'm tempted to believe that Samskrita and Pali were diglossic. We've discussed somewhere that Samskrita could have been a used predominantly by royals and scholars, and Pali more by the layman on the street - but if they indeed were - why have they been treated as two separate languages? Diglossi-a (or is it digloss-ism?) exists in perhaps all languages, but the most telling contemporary example is perhaps modern-day Tamizh. I'd like to compare Samskrita to Centamizh and Pali to spoken, everyday Tamizh.

Now, examining the comparison purely from the prism of diglossia, am I ending up comparing apples and oranges?!

6 Jan (5 days ago) Nrupatunga Kannada wouldnt have had that necessity since hi exists as a distinct phoneme in kannada. Therefore the change from varihi to variki must have preceeded the kannada-tamil split. Then there will be lot of questions asked. did dravidians cultivated Rice as early as 7th century BC(time frame where experts estimate the kannada tamil split) I know that oldest reference to word Idli - fermented rice comes from a kannada literature of 10th century. So definatly people would have been knowing about rice much earlier than that. But 5th to 7th Century BC - Not sure.

6 Jan (5 days ago) delete

இரவி/రవ/Ravi then how Vrihi was derived in Sanskrit. I dont know. Perhaps from proto-munda or Indus language?" But according to you it might be proto-munda or indus but Tamil Should not. what an so called Tamilian attitude. surely no Sanskrit Pandithas could be able to explain Vrihi origin, since it is not belonging to it and in reality it is derived from Tamil as said earlier. The form of Vrihi is not attested in IE languages and only the form of rice. you may seek help from Thillai Moovayiraththavar of Chidambaram. "hi-.ki change looks unlikely.also kannada has the habbit to change from va-ba and not va to a. So i am doubtfull about this change. " Nrupatunga is right. "Also note vrihi must have been pronounced in sanskrit originally more like warihi/uarihi (this is how it is attested in pali) and not as vrihi (which is how it is written in sanskrit today)" There is no such attestation in Pali language. Vīhi : (page 644) 99 (jātiyo); J i.395 (˚yojana-- sata); v.36 (˚ratana-- sata); DhA i.8; ii.91 (˚yojana-- sataŋ). Pali:Vīhi Vīhi [. Vedic vrīhi] rice, paddy Vin iv.264 (as one of the 7 kinds of āmaka -- dhañña); J i.429; iii.356; Miln 102, 267; Vism 383 (˚tumba); DhA i.125; iii.374 (˚piṭaka). pls ref: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.3.pali.1312428 if Ramakrishnan is correct about change of h in to k, after referring about Pali: Vihi, it should be in dravidian languages as Vikki. But there is no attestation like that in any of the Indian Languges. if any, please cite it.

7 Jan (4 days ago) Ramakrishnan

There is no such attestation in Pali language. I think there is, although it is not listed in the Pali Lexicon. So how much yarn is needed to spin vIhi from arisi?

7 Jan (4 days ago) Ramakrishnan Only Varihi (or Vrihi) satisfactorily explains all other developments. From varihi (skt) to variki (drav) to ariki to akki is quite natural. varihi to arihi to arisi is also natural varihi to vari is also natural varihi to arihi to ari is also quite natural "virai" (in tamil) which I presume to be also derived from vrihi also later came to be used as a stock word for any kind of seed that is sown (not just rice).

7 Jan (4 days ago) delete

இரவி/రవ/Ravi "virai" (in tamil) which I presume to be also derived from vrihi also later came to be used as a stock word for any kind of seed that is sown (not just rice)." Dear Ram, thanks for giving the such a wonderful corroborative citation and for my argument, as it will attest my logic claim that the word rice is derived from the word Arici having the origin in AL from which a:kam (grains)akki (kannada=Rice) are derived. Not from Specific word a common word is derived. as only from the common word, a specific word could be derived. as oil is derived from word oliva and the same was appliled to all kinds of oils whether it is olive or not. Cf. petrol, ethanol etc, Tamil Ennei is used for all kinds of oils[nallennai, kadalaiennei, vilakkennei, thaengaayennei] /manchi noone, gulaabi noone, chenaga noone etc of Telugu. From the words a:kam and virai, the words, rice, arisi, akki and even vireegi/vrihi (possibility of origin from varagu could not be also ruled out) virai->(viraigi)-> vireegi->vreehi (Skt), Vihi(pali) Al->A;Kam->Akkam->Akki (kannada=rice) Al->ari, arisi->rice (English), etc.

7 Jan (4 days ago) delete

இரவி/రవ/Ravi "only Varihi (or Vrihi) satisfactorily explains all other developments." The so called Varihi form is not found in Sanskrit(vedic/pali) and it is merely a supposition.

8 Jan (3 days ago) Ramakrishnan Possible etymology for varihi/vrihi Varihi/Vrihi seems to be related to varI-/vAri (water/river) cf. "Deepwater Rice". One more point - No change-trail is attested in Sanskrit/Prakrits for development of the word vrIhI/varIhI All the development/changes are attested only in Dravidian languages, which is also a strong indication that the borrowing was done by dravidian. If IA borrowed it from some dravidian form, it should have retained some form that is close to, say arisi. "Arisi" itself cannot be native dravidian owing to lack of sibilants in early Dravidian as I pointed out earlier. Enough said.

8 Jan (3 days ago) Ramakrishnan A PIE root??? *wrīg'h is a PIE root which stands for grain (probably rice). Could someone check and confirm?

8 Jan (3 days ago) delete

இரவி/రవ/Ravi All the development/changes are attested only in Dravidian languages, which is also a strong indication that the borrowing was done by dravidian." . vrihi form is not found in all IA languages. don't try to hide the big pumpkin in a small lunch box. "Arisi" itself cannot be native dravidian owing to lack of sibilants in early Dravidian as I pointed out earlier." as i already proved, the word Vrihi in Sanskrit is derived from Tamil word arisi and arisi form alone is retained in IE languages and not the vrihi. al(small things)-A:kam (grain=Tamil)-(nut is big one compared to grain) a:kam->Akkam (grain=Tamil)->Akki (Kannada=Tamil), Akkadham (unbroken rice),Akkadhai>Akshatha (Skt), Akshinthulu (Tel) al->(ar)->ari (rice = Tamil,Malayalam) ari->arisi (rice = Tamil) arisi-> rice , O.Fr. ris, It. riso, L. oriza (cf. It. riso), Gk. oryza "rice," in of my argument, you have cited Virai (grain) which is in accordance with Akkam (grain). Vil->Virai (grain=Tamil, Malayalam) Virai->(Viraigi)->Vireegi (rice =Tamil)->Vrihi (SKT), Vihi [compare this with a:kam->Akkam (grain=Tamil)->Akki (Kannada=Tamil)] Virai->(ViRai)-(ViTTu)->vithu, Vidhai (seed=Tamil), Vedha, (grain,seed)=Telugu)->bedhe Vithu->Vichu->beejamu (Telugu)->beeja (skt) Vil-Veeyam (rice=Tamil)->beeyamu (rice=Telugu)->beeya (Kannada) Vithu->Vichu-> Veesam(grain=Tamil)

"*wrīg'h is a PIE root which stands for grain (probably rice). Could someone check and confirm?" Beeja and vrihi forms of Skt are not available in IE languages, as they are native indian words derived from Tamil. you could not find the answer for so called *wrīg'h as a PIE root for rice. now you are taking the stand that from the meaning of grain, the word rice was derived in confirmity with my logic.