Flight Planning Tricks 4e4u2t

WannaBeBiggles -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hi All I have just started ATPL Flight Planning and just wondering if anyone that has done it has any short cuts, tips, tricks etc to on. I am going through all of Nathans (AFT) notes and doing all the work, and am getting the hang of it, albeit quite slowly at the moment. I know some people average out headings, winds etc and create "super sectors" and just including them within TOC and TOD, though not sure if that will yield a constant and accurate result. I am especially interested if anyone has tricks on creating a good 'guesstimate' on flight fuel required that is more accurate than (NM x 10) + 1600 that would give me a good and more accurate figure to check my final figures against. Any help would be greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance! crank1000 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------I have some more accurate figures. PM me for them if you want. The AFT is all you need to but if you can be bothered to do a few more minutes of calculation on the big questions then I can help you out. Sometimes the rules of thumb don't give you a clear cut answer in the test. Some answers have only 50 kilo's difference between them. If you muck up your landing weight for a 1 inop PNR then you need all the accuracy you can get.

ReverseFlight I am self studying Rob Avery due to work commitments and a tight budget. Sure, he's the one suggesting "super sector" calculations. Even so, I am worried I might run out of time in the exam with those. Do I really have to split them up ? Besides, some of my calculated wind components and SGRs differ slightly from his examples. Crank1000, could you PM me also ? Any help or advice greatly appreciated. skytops Posts: 178 From memory the big questions are worth 4 or 5 marks, and are all toward the end- fun things like PNRs, ETPs etc. Do these big mark ones first (and hopefully correctly). After the practice exams youll have an idea on how long each of these take- then allow yourself say 10-15 minutes per each of these. If you don't have the answer, move to the next one. Don't dwell on them if you are stuck, move on and come back little later.

Then work down through the lesser mark questions. It's more likely quicker and easier to discount and guess from a 1-2 mark question. Also, if you guess and get wrong a 5 marker as opposed to a 1-2 marker, the impact to your end result is a lot worse! That's my tip! 9th May 2008, 04:34 #6 (permalink) ReverseFlight Date: Nov 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 576 Thanks for the good advice. I don't want to start a Rob Avery vs AFT argument (indeed I have great respect for both) but just to give a couple of examples, Rob suggests supersectors rather than split them up, and then on climbs AFT says use FL185 winds up to FL310 but Rob says use the average of FL185 and FL 235 - they both go either way, if you see what I mean. 9th May 2008, 05:45 #7 (permalink) ReverseFlight Date: Nov 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 576 Thanks landof4x, I was recently doing an ETP practice question and your point was right on. Also, I have slipped up on distances in the past because of the way they worded it - in the heat of the exam, too many flashing lights ... Keep the great tips coming, I need every one of them to this exam. 9th May 2008, 08:03 #8 (permalink) rep

Date: Jul 2007 Location: adelaide Posts: 132 aft is gold. i did nathans fulltime ground school and ed all my atpls the first time. highest mark was for flight planning 97%. would seriousley recommend go doing his ground school, you would get a lot more hints and tips in person, all of which i can no longer sorry :P good luck! ReverseFlight

just goes to prove it's just an exam, which is what I have been trying to tell myself, I'll forget everything as soon as it's over. I'm based in Vic and have my hands full, just couldn't get away to Queensland for the course. I appreciate what you're saying. I've only heard praises for N Higgins.

Date: Jul 2007 Location: adelaide Posts: 132 oh yeah, highlight all of the routes on the erc highs that you use in his practice questions, and wright the distances for the routes next to the route numbers on the erc high, in small font. and use different highlight colours when routes are close, so you dont get confused saves u heeps of time in the exam, adding distances, getting it wrong, hitting a wrong number on the calculator, double checking your answer etc. ur probably looking at a good 2-3min per question saved, and when u have a lot of questions, your probably looking at 20min of time saved. just hope the exam supervisor doesnt go into too much detail. the lady at maroochydore didnt even check our maps - and nathan even told us to do it your right it is just an exam, and you forget most of it afterwards. most people find flight planning very time crucial, so make sure u use 1 of those flight planning sheets per exam question, so you can go back later and look over it. having said that tho, i only took 2 hours for flight planning, so i guess i just have a freaky mind for that type of stuff :P 9th May 2008, 10:38 #11 (permalink) ReverseFlight

Date: Nov 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 576 2 hours for AFPA ? That must be a record. Wish I could sit at Maroochy too, as the ladies here tend to be a bit more detailed Any more shortcuts which come to mind apart from the ERCs ? 9th May 2008, 12:40 #12 (permalink) Lasiorhinus

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 There's a document floating around that has a very, very accurate way of estimating SGRs.. I'll see if I can dig it up - its accurate enough to get your fuel burn to within 30 or so kilograms, and saves a heap of time - now if only I could where I filed it...

10th May 2008, 00:42 Unhinged

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Date: Mar 2005 Location: Oz. Hot wet bit Posts: 348 Q uote: highlight all of the routes on the erc highs that you use in his practice questions, and wright the distances for the routes next to the route numbers on the erc high Be careful if you do this. Some exam supervisors are extremely pedantic. After doing the practice exams successfully I was cautiously confident, so I made a serious effort to thoroughly erase all of the marks on my charts. Exams are stressful enough, and I didn't want to put more pressure on myself by worrying about having charts rejected on the day. So the charts I took in were completely clean, except for some very faint remains of the marks from doing practice exams. The supervisor spent 3 minutes with a rubber making them even fainter and wasn't happy even then (and did the same again at the end of the exam !) 10th May 2008, 01:47 kangaroota

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Date: Dec 2002 Location: bkk Posts: 51 When working out your fuel, work backwards. IE figure out what fuel you should have when you arrive (reserves), then start working out your fuel burn sector by sector, starting with the last sector first, first last. A short cut to calculating your take off weight. 10th May 2008, 03:28 ReverseFlight

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Date: Nov 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 576 Good one, kangaroota, I almost forgot this is crutial esp in PNR questions. The problem I face most is how exact or how much of an average I should use to calculate winds from the RSWTs as I am finding great variances in deriving the SGR on longer hauls. Any one has good suggestions ? 10th May 2008, 04:14 capt787

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Date: Apr 2008 Location: sydney Posts: 68 did my one at Oct last year, finish it in less then 2 hours

from memory, when a/c goes up you will use the wind at 2/3 of the Altitude you are going to (ie. Sea Level to FL370 = use the wind @ FL235). when a/c goes down you will use the wind at half of the altitude you are going to (ie. FL370 to Sea Level = use the wind @ FL 185) for 1 EN G INOP , always use Airspeed of 415kts (thats the way the question is writtern) DP ops, always use F130 (both east and west) and M0.59, wind @ F180. descend time to Sea Level = 13 mins and 990kgs of fuel (including 400 kg of approach fuel) write the total distance of the airway you have used in practice exam on ERC with pencil, that saves a few minutes Airspeed = Mach no X 39 X sqrt (Temp in degree K) always double check your mid-zone weight because you may be out by 0.1 tons and that make the difference between and fail Typical fuel burnt per hour (both normal and 1 ENG INOP, depending on weight) ~ 4200-4400kg, anything outside that range usually indicate some error 10th May 2008, 04:18 rep

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Date: Jul 2007 Location: adelaide Posts: 132 from looking through my b727 manual, the SGR's i have written down are: standard: 10kg/nm depressurized: 13kg/nm yaw damper inopp: 11kg/nm OEI: 11kg/nm landing gear extended: 20kg/nm then u had to put in some manual changes like if you had a tailwind, e.g. your standard 10kg/nm woul be reduced by 1kg/nm per x amounts of tailwind component (dont the number). oppisate with headwinds of course 10th May 2008, 09:42 ReverseFlight

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Date: Nov 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 576 Thanks to rep and Cap787 for the golden advice. It has really lifted my spirits.

A question for Cap787 : the POH uses LRC for OEI so at FL230/240 the TAS goes from 405 to 415 as the weight increases from about 70T to 76T, which might make a difference with the SGRs. How can I be sure ing 415 TAS as you said ? Appreciate more input. 10th May 2008, 10:10 rep

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Date: Jul 2007 Location: adelaide Posts: 132 hes kinda right my book says use 420kts for the TAS for finding out the for O EI you just use a TAS of 420kts period. why? who knows we just did what nathan said! :P for normal ops u get ur TAS from the temp and mach no. 10th May 2008, 10:19 ReverseFlight

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Date: Nov 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 576 Thanks rep for the response. If NH says 420, then 415/420 is good enough, no questions asked. I just want a ! Back to the grinding stone for now, but will keep checking this thread 11th May 2008, 02:04 WannaBeBiggles

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Date: Mar 2006 Location: Victoria, Australia Age: 29 Posts: 365 Thanks for all the fantastic advice guys! Laso, if you could find that doc that would be awesome!!! Any more info would be grealty appreciated! I'm doing my ATPL exam at YBAF, I just hope I don't get the cranky pedantic exam supervisor that is there sometimes...

11th May 2008, 10:04

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capt787 Date: Apr 2008 Location: sydney Posts: 68 i did my one with len sales. i guess 415/420 won't make too much of a difference 415/420 can only be used with calculation. DO NOT use this figure with anything else 11th May 2008, 10:43 ReverseFlight

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Date: Nov 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 576 Thanks capt787, I find using either 415 or 420 yields the right answer in most practice questions. FYI, I've also found super sectors close enough to get a tick in the right box. Keep those tips rolling in - they've been really useful. Good on ya, mate. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited by ReverseFlight : 12th May 2008 at 07:04. 12th May 2008, 07:19 Lasiorhinus

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Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 SGRs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------For EMZWs between 70 and 80 tonnes, and a cruise level between FL290 and FL350, Mach No: SAR (nil wind) M 0.84 10.3 M 0.82 10.0 M 0.80 9.5 M 0.79 9.5 LRC 9.2 If your EMZW is not between 70 and 80 tonnes, If over 80 tonnes, add 0.5

If under 70 tonnes, subtract 0.5 If your cruise level is outside FL290-FL350, add 1.0 For a headwind, add 0.02 per knot of wind. For a tailwind, subtract 0.02 per knot of wind. The resulting number will be pretty darn close to your SGR. 12th May 2008, 10:44 WannaBeBiggles

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Date: Mar 2006 Location: Victoria, Australia Age: 29 Posts: 365 Thanks Lasio! Am gonna give them a whirl! Are there any factors to add for unusual ops, such as DP, 2E, GE or TSE?

12th May 2008, 15:21 Lasiorhinus

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Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 No, that's just for Normal Operations. But it saves a HEAP of time over the long questions. 12th May 2008, 21:29 WannaBeBiggles

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Date: Mar 2006 Location: Victoria, Australia Age: 29 Posts: 365 Thanks Lasio, you're a champ!

13th May 2008, 14:10 ReverseFlight

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Date: Nov 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 576 Thanks Lasiorhinus, those numbers 70/80 tonnes and FL290/350 are certainly new to me. Great stuff for the exam.

WannaBeBiggles, I am only aware of the following abnormals: OEI/DP/YDI/TSE 11.0 GE 20.0 Do these accord with your understanding? Some books say YDI @ 9.2 and TSE @ 10.0 but I think that's on the low side.

13th May 2008, 21:21 WannaBeBiggles

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Date: Mar 2006 Location: Victoria, Australia Age: 29 Posts: 365 Nathan Higgins provides the following figures Normal Ops 10 1-INOP 11 DP 13 YDI 10 TSE 11 LGE 20 However these are conservative, I've been getting much closer with some of the above figures. I am playing around with track and wind averaging as well ((trk or wnd) x dist) + ((trk or wnd) x dist) + ((trk or wnd) x dist) Sum of Distances However I found that with track averaging, sometimes it's easier (and still rather accurate) to get out the protractor and just measure A-B. Also, be sure to get to know the company policy well... been caught out a few times in the beginning taking 3300kg out for reserves in an inflight question, as opposed to 2250 (company policy stipulates that you only need 30mins fixed reserve when in-flight planning) 14th May 2008, 10:37 ReverseFlight

#30 (permalink)

Date: Nov 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 576 Agreed those SAR figures are conservative as more often than not strong HWCs and ISA+ temps push up the final SGR figures.

I've also found detailed track averaging too cumbersome and liable to mistakes under exam pressure conditons. Basically eyeballing the RSWT against the ERC-H waypoints produces a very near result in many cases. Also regarding fuel allowances they often switch between startup weight and BRW - one of the many annoyances to get you wandering further off the correct answer. 25th May 2008, 02:15 go_soaring

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Date: Aug 2007 Location: @ C loudBase! Age: 26 Posts: 83 Pppppp! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I finally got to meet the great legend himself, Nathan Higgins. With his help just recently, I was able to Flight Planning first crack! 80% and finished with an hour to spare I found that there's only one way to this bugger, and that's to just do the work, the good ol' PPPPPP (Prior Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance) comes to mind. No short cuts here I found. My pointers to . Get a good picture in your head on what the subject is all about. I found with this, I was easily able to jump from one question to another with minimal fuss. Also, KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid! For the flight plans, I broke it down into approx 5 box's, the first was getting, tracks: dont do the super sectors, too much work and worry. If you get your groundspeed out by more than 2-3kts, it can create havok at the end! Break it down, have a look at the wind sections then plan to a waypoint that is closest to it. If there's only one wind (like: YSSY-YBBN), then bonus, just plan YSSY-TOPC-TOPD-YBBN-APPRoach. next distances, planned heights, ISA dev, wind (as per track notes above, and everyone elses, ie, 2/3's climb and 1/2 descent), TAS, Wind Comp and final GS. I found that all these in the above order just bounced off one another. 2nd box in a forward plan: figure out the climb figures - bang, done! 3rd box: figure out the descent figures - bang done! 4th box: do the rest of the cruise - bang, done! 5th box: calculate the fuel then add reserves. Backward plans: 1st Box, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 5th. 's, work out the first, then same as forward plan.

PNR's, pick one, then work towards it like the forward plan. Be careful to get the right amount of flight fuel. Then figure out how far you've got to move (if any) to the correct PN R using SGR's.. DP's are a give away 5 marks, pray for these buggers!! Also got one 4 mark Payload question, so lucky!

Safe Planning, go_soaring! instead 25th May 2008, 02:39 rep

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Date: Jul 2007 Location: adelaide Posts: 132 congrats, your a 10% over achiever :P 22nd June 2008, 07:49 #33 (permalink) Lasiorhinus Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 To save time track averaging, just use the track printed on the ERC at around halfway. Its going to be within three degrees of accurate, and , the forecast winds are only ever to within ten degrees anyway.

14th August 2008, 10:47 #34 (permalink) garman Date: Nov 2007 Location: australia Posts: 33 I'm sitting AFPL next tuesday, an not looking forward to it.. one thing I'm uncertain about is when you do the fuel recalculation for a 3-engine PNR, do you use 3300kg's or 2250kg's for the fixed reserve. I would have thought it was 3300kg's because that's the normal ops fixed reserve, but the working out (done by the instructor teaching it) that I have a copy of for this certain example uses 2250kg's? does anybody know what to use? 14th August 2008, 11:14 #35 (permalink) Lasiorhinus

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 I dont have my 727 book handy, but become very familiar with the Company Fuel Policy pages at the front. The table on its side lists the reserves et cetera that you need for each situation, normal ops, normal+alternate, O EI, DP. But dont forget that for in- flight planning, the reserves required are less than for pre-flight planning. Off the top of my head, I think the 45 min fixed reserve can be dropped to a 30 min fixed reserve, provided the aircraft has already taken off. The page before the fuel policy table explains this. Sorry I dont have page numbers. 14th August 2008, 13:43 #36 (permalink) Cap'n Arrr

Date: Jun 2007 Location: I'm right behind you!!! Posts: 486 1-17 is the preflight planning chart, theres a couple things that you have to change for inflight planning, these are on the page before it in the book. Basically you only need 2250 instead of 3300 for inflight as compared to pre flight planning, and in some circumstances you don't need taxi/shutdown fuel at the other end

20th August 2008, 03:15 #37 (permalink) aviator777 Date: Jun 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 27 Old aircraft, new procedures/charts -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Some questions for those of you with recent experience in Flight Planning: Non RSVM cruise levels – According to exam guidelines, B727 is not RSVM approved but may operate in RSVM airspace. The charts these days only show RSVM hemispherical cruise levels. O ld charts used to show both. Are we expected to memorise the non RSVM levels? Note AIP not permitted in exam so the table of crusing levels south of 65S is not accessible. Terminal chart distances – Note that TAC’s are not permitted material in exam. How do we get the missing distances on High charts in the terminal area? Are they given in exam questions; do they have be measured against latitude scale? Apologies if I'm overlooking something obvious....must be Flight Planning nerves Thanks

20th August 2008, 03:52 #38 (permalink) UnderneathTheRadar When you live....

Date: Sep 2004 Location: 0.0221 DME Keyboard Posts: 512 Aviator777 RVSM - it's just a red herring. You can operate in RVSM airspace but only at non-RVSM levels (i.e. those in the book). Just colour code the altitude capablity page for east and westbound levels and you can't go wrong. I wonder if they've just stuck that wording in because someone challenged questions based on the fact that a 727 couldn't operate in certain airspace. TACs - where information is missing from the ERC then it will be provided in the question i.e. Brisbane to Melbourne route, distance and track from Canty to ML will be provided. UTR 20th August 2008, 08:37 #39 (permalink) WannaBeBiggles Date: Mar 2006 Location: Victoria, Australia Age: 29 Posts: 365 Aviator777 UTR is correct, hilight the level in your Altitude Capability graph and the distances are usually given, however I have heard of 1 or 2 not being given, so a good set of dividers can save your hide

20th August 2008, 12:40 #40 (permalink) john_tullamarine

Date: Apr 2001 Location: various places ..... Posts: 3,932 From one who did it long, long ago .. and used to teach it .. (a) get a good grounding in the basics .. a few texts around .. Worthington is as good as any (b) the courses available (and I am out of touch these days) probably will emphasise the exams, and that's useful once (a) is addressed .. lots of past/sample papers gets the focus from (a) to the exam

(c) absolute imperative .. make yourself a schedule of mins/question to spread the time allocation according to the marks on offer .. no point in getting the first three questions done perfectly and leaving the rest not attempted ... and then, stick to the schedule .. if you haven't finished the question, leave it, go onto the next one .. and then come back at the end if you have some spare time ... 25th August 2008, 15:16 #41 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Silly question perhaps? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hi all, Perhaps this is a silly question but in regards to en route climb with landing gear extended (decision made to continue for whatever reason) where do I find the distance in ANM for the climb? Page 5-4 of the B727 POH only mentions 220 KIAS/.50M climb fuel as per normal and climb time plus 20%. I'm using N. Higgins notes but I can't find it (I'll go searching for an example in the practice questions next but I really want to find a reference). By rough calculation (220 KIAS compared to approx 300 KIAS) it would seem that it should be some factor of about 40% subtracted. Ta, and good luck to you all, FRQ CB edit: I have now also checked ATC book with no joy but now that I think of it I suppose that the distance (ANM) will be the same but will simply take more time. (Is that simply the old L/D relationship coming into play?) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo : 25th August 2008 at 15:25. Reason: add reference 25th August 2008, 15:54 #42 (permalink) Lasiorhinus

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 You're spot on - there is no factoring of the air distance, because it will take the same distance to climb, but just take longer to do it.

27th August 2008, 07:13 #43 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Holding Fuel for Works in Progress -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Abnormal Ops holding fuel not reqd for holding but what about Works In Progress? I should think that WIP holding fuel would need to be carried for all abnormal ops (massive bit of equipment blocking the RWY which can only be moved so fast etc). Then again an abnormal cruise from the should give plenty of time for the requirement to be removed and if it happened near the aerodrome then the vast majority of the flight was at a more efficient SGR and now the difference between N.O. fixed reserve and Abnormal fixed reserve would add 1050 kg (DP; 15-19 min holding not including 10% CR) or 1800 kg(OEI; 25-30 min holding). I could 'what if' scenarios all day but I'd rather just know if anybody has a concrete answer. FRQ CB Another interesting one to which I don't expect any reply: Operation Pitch Black (Darwin every June from memory) AIC declares that aeroplanes declaring an emergency (so definitely not one just experiencing abnormal ops) are not necessarily guaranteed priority over exercise (military) aircraft (no doubt due to the inability to those operating without radios). What kind of pre-flight considerations do you think come into play there? (AC has had to fly DP so misses window and now has got to hold but holding wasn't originally reqd).

27th August 2008, 07:19 #44 (permalink) Lasiorhinus Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Neither of those scenarios, or anything similar, is on the Flight Planning exam... 27th August 2008, 07:53 #45 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 It's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks. A bit paranoid perhaps, I'm just convinced that somebody is always looking for a way to screw me! (Relax I'm from C ASA; I'm here to help.) FRQ CB

27th August 2008, 08:20 #46 (permalink) mingalababya

Date: Feb 2004 Location: Melbourne, China Posts: 335 Hey guys .. I'm another new ATPL Flight Planning exam candidate here .. so thanks so much for the tips. Whilst on the topic of holding fuel for abnormal operations, is it correct that you plan to carry holding fuel for INTER and TEMPO conditions when you have 1 engine in op, but not for when you have a depressurization situation? If this is the case, then it seems to imply that you land immediately regardless of the weather conditions if you have a depressurization emergency. And another question .. how many questions are there in the exam and how many are there requiring a full flight plan to be completed? The reason I ask is that it's taking me about 45 minutes to complete just one question asking to plan a flight from A to B and calculate how much fuel is required to be carried on board at start-up. At this rate, I'll only have time for 4 questions .. so do I need to increase my work rate? Hopefully there'll only be one of these questions. Keep the tips coming ..

27th August 2008, 16:25 #47 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 edit: Mingalababya, I'm very sorry to have possibly lead you astray with this post (original still posted below). Despite what I said making sense in the real world it was wrong. The correct answer is that DEPRESSURISED PLANNING TO AN ACCEPTABLE (OR SUITABLE) AERODROME NEVER NEEDS ANY HOLDING FUEL. Not for preflight planning and not for in- flight planning. Refer again to page 1-16A specifically Paragraph 12.2) which for DP Ops says where Inter or Tempo are forecast but are not below the landing minima the aerodrome is considered to be "an 'acceptable' aerodrome during these periods and no holding fuel is required."

It's a pretty lousy abuse of the English language but that's what they want. The following paragraph makes another interesting scenario to note (I do not THINK that this is on the exam but it may be) is that they can still make DP Holding fuel reqd if they say that the aerodrome is closed for Inter or Tempo periods due to weather (that's really really really bad weather as in below Landing Minima) I hope that this clears things up. Sorry if I messed you around. Please find below my original and (almost) unedited post. FRQ CB No, refer to page 1-16A in the 727 manual. It is only the holding fuel for traffic which you will be exempt from carrying (the logic being that if you lose an engine or have suffered a compression failure then ATC will move you to the front of the queue for landing thereby obviating the need for holding fuel)(Wrong, see above). As the Inter and Tempo are weather induced you must assume that you will arrive and be unable to land and have to hold for that amount of time (in whatever configuration you are in).(Wrong, see above) What I think you may be thinking about is the difference between the Contingency Reserve for Normal Ops vs DP (10% vs N il), the Fixed Reserve for Normal Ops vs O EI or DP (3300kg vs 1500kg or 2250kg) or the fact that there's only need to calculate Fixed Reserve for the alternate aerodrome if it's needed. The text I am studying explains the first bit really well (I paraphrase):

Quote: These rules may sound strange but the logic behind a more stringent alternate requirement for OEI arrivals compared to DP is so that the aircraft with only two engines will always have sufficient fuel to proceed to a Suitable aerodrome (you beaut weather well above minima) and be virtually guranteed of not having to make a OEI missed approach due to not becoming visual. There is no particular performance problem with DP missed approaches and the relaxed weather requirements mean that more airports will be available as alternates for a depressurisation which will ease the fuel critical nature of a depressurisation. (with apologies to Advanced Flight Theory, Flight Planning, p. 58) The above applies only to a pilot sitting on the ground making a plan. Once airborne then, and only then, does page 1-16 para 9. come into effect (recalc of Normal Ops fuel requirements). You're reference to a "depressurization emergency" makes me want to make one pertinent point: It is important to that when you plan for these failures there is every expectation that you are going to make an uneventful landing somewhere; you're not not simply making the most of an emergency situation (for the purpose of the ATPL exam these are covered in the very back of the manual and only takes up 3 pages). What we are looking at is handling abnormal operations (the use of the word "Emergency" is intentionally avoided I think) so you don't just go looking to "land immediately regardless of the weather conditions". For what it's worth... FRQ CB

PS If anybody thinks I've said something wrong please pipe up and let me (and everybody else reading this) know. PPS Mingalababya, feel free to PM me and if you're in Perth definitely PM me. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo : 16th September 2008 at 05:35. Reason: Hungry for some crow! (I made a big mistake here and need to fix it.) 28th August 2008, 19:07 #48 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Step climbs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------So how do I know when to step climb? Is it assumed that I will simply plan at the first level unless specifically asked to step climb? I ask because on a practice question I was instructed to cruise at the "highest available and appropriate Flight Level" I was only a few hundred KG over for FL370 but all I had to do was cruise at FL330 for 7 minutes then climb up to 370. It made sense to me (especially since FL370 was the optimum hemispherical level) and it gave me a lot more payload. (For those playing at home the course answer did not show a step climb despite my figures for the non-step-climb scenario being correct , Page 38 of 78 in the answers section). My gut tells me that for the purpose of the exam I'd better not be a smart-arse and to just keep it simple by planning at one level unless specifically asked to do otherwise. FRQ CB (Did I ask somebody this question already because it sounds familiar?) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo : 28th August 2008 at 19:18. Reason: too Mr smarty-pants 29th August 2008, 11:58 #49 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Anyone, Anyone? Bueller, Bueller, Bueller?

30th August 2008, 06:38 #50 (permalink) Lasiorhinus

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Dont play funny buggers in the exam. If you're even one kilogram heavier than the maximum weight for a level (not Optimum weight, though!), you cant fly at it, so plan at the next lower appropriate level. 30th August 2008, 12:01 #51 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Ta -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ta... (Apparently "Ta" was too short so I have to add these words.) 30th August 2008, 13:23 #52 (permalink) devolved

Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a fantasy world that is aviation. Posts: 75 great thread peeps.

doing flight planning now, 5 days of it and my head has caved in. Tempted to be driven to the bottle. Please tell me the FMS sorts all this jazz out inflight?

30th August 2008, 14:14 #53 (permalink) ReverseFlight Date: Nov 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 576 hi mingalababya, just read your post after a couple of weeks' break from PPRuNe.

With 1 engine inop, you can still fly on its remaining engines if properly configured (drift down), so you must hold for the wx. Depressurisation requires immediate descent to Lsalt and sucks fuel and so requires an immediate landing. Never mind the wx, the tower will clear the runway for your emergency, hence no holding. 45 minutes for a question is too slow - it should be more like 10-15 minutes max. From my memory there are 20+ questions and with a least 3 which were 5 marks and a lot of others worth 3 or 4 marks. The secret is not to calculate your answers but to do rough estimates - winds, distances, weights etc - and pick the nearest answer. Often you can discard half the answers given cos' they are in the wrong direction in a PNR/ etc. Another way is to do a rough estimate and work back from the answer given which is closest to your estimate, and if the numbers are not right, then move to the next closest answer, and so on. That way you can finish a question in between 1 and 5 minutes. Tackle the 5 markers first, then the 4s and then the 3s. That way you will not be bogged down with wasting time on a 3 marker when there are more marks to be gained elsewhere. I don't have my materials with me but I hope this helps.

31st August 2008, 04:14 #54 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Whoa there pardner -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Quote: Depressurisation requires immediate descent to Lsalt and sucks fuel and so requires an immediate landing. Never mind the wx, the tower will clear the runway for your emergency, hence no holding. Wait a minute. Not a descent to LSALT, rather FL130 where supplemental O2 is no longer reqd for pax. LSALT over the sea (1500 MSL) or even one of 5000 MSL over some mountains is still going to burn far too much fuel. It's FL130 not LSALT (in fact it's really HSALT when you think of it). And it does NOT require an immediate landing, just a planned landing before you burn into your reserves. Save immediate landings life threatening situations like fire not just decreased performance because as Meatloaf said "Two out of three aint bad". Secondly DO mind the wx. ATC will clear the traffic and the runway but not the CB pissing hale/lightning/brimstone on the threshold... and the 727 handbook says to. FRQ CB -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo : 31st August 2008 at 04:24.

2nd September 2008, 11:20 #55 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Anyone studying in Perth? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Anybody studying ATPL Flight Planning in Perth. If so I'd love to meet up and compare notes. PM me. I'm sitting it next Tuesday morning. ~FRQ CB PS Yes, I have posted this as a new thread in order to get my message across in the forum, s please don't merge too quickly. Ta

3rd September 2008, 02:48 tiger19

#56 (permalink)

Date: Sep 2008 Location: oz Posts: 38 I sat Flight planning at bankstown last week first attemp got 68% self study. Am resitting it in about a week. Anyone in sydney about to sit the exam who would like to catch up for a study session preferably this weekend please PM me

3rd September 2008, 03:38 mingalababya

#57 (permalink)

Date: Feb 2004 Location: Melbourne, China Posts: 335 Q uote: Originally Posted by ReverseFlight Tackle the 5 markers first, then the 4s and then the 3s. That way you will not be bogged down with wasting time on a 3 marker when there are more marks to be gained elsewhere. reverseflight, thanks for your tips .. I tend to get bogged down with writing down all the working out on paper .. including the flight profile with distances and winds, track etc ... may be I should spend less time doing this? 3rd September 2008, 05:27 FRQ Charlie Bravo

#58 (permalink)

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Q uote: I tend to get bogged down with writing down all the working out on paper .. including the flight profile with distances and winds, track etc ... Me too but I can't seem to answer the questions without all the writing. If I don't write it down I lose my place in the workings or have to recalculate too many times. (I think the only answer for me is more practice and less PPRuNe.) FRQ CB

3rd September 2008, 08:33 Lasiorhinus

#59 (permalink)

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Get highlighters, and use different colours to keep track of different segments of the flight. Draw diagrams - heaps of them. Use a whole A4 page per question. ASL will give you heaps of paper if you want it. Draw up something like this -

7th September 2008, 15:53 FRQ Charlie Bravo

#60 (permalink)

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 getting there -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks for that, Lasio. I just spent about 10 minutes typing out a question because I thought that I'd found a mistake in the course... in typing it out I found my error... again. (If only I had 5 cents for every time I thought I found an error and then realised I was in the wrong I'd probably not have to make money to fly any more.) Getting better at it all though. I'm wary of getting too confident, that's always my downfall.

Good luck to those of you sitting it soon. What subject are you folks sitting next? This is my first so I'm thinking Perf and Loading (keeping it 727 while the numbers are fresh). After that what would people recommend? FRQ CB Oh yeah, I was talking to someone who said that they were asked about a flight from Brisbane (I think) to Bali. What the? 7th September 2008, 16:48 Lasiorhinus

#61 (permalink)

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Yep, there's two known questions in the database that relate to flights in or out of Bali. Theres quite a few international flights - all from local airports like Port Moresby, Honiara (in my example above), Christchurch, Jakarta. I'm sure there are others, too, but at this hour of night my brain is already on its way to bed. After Flight Planning, do Navigation. Its probably the closest (though they just give you the fuel, instead of making you work it out). There's a few questions on the ERCs, and the Point of Latest Safe Diversion is the most flightplanningesque question type. Theres's also a lot of IREX material in Navigation. I wouldn't be too concerned with "keeping it 727 while the numbers are fresh", as the numbers for Performance are written on the weight and balance sheet... and even if you do do Aerodynamics and Systems next, you won't be trying to memorise performance figures for the 767 - it's a totally different type of exam.

7th September 2008, 21:13 WannaBeBiggles

#62 (permalink)

Date: Mar 2006 Location: Victoria, Australia Age: 29 Posts: 365 FRQ, I did it with Nathan and thought his structure was good. FP - Gets the most most mentally draining (IMO) out the door first Perf - Not the same as FP, but might as well get ones done that use just the 727 Nav - Totally different from L nav, wasn't too bad, all the instrument stuff will give you a good idea of what Systems is like.

Systems - 2nd only to FP when it comes to faliure rates, very broad set of subject material. The CASA question are quite different to Nathans questions, so best bet is go through the book questions and answer each question by looking for the info. All the best, once you have done the hard yards with these you can forget study until your type rating!

8th September 2008, 03:09 The Hill

#63 (permalink)

Date: Oct 2006 Location: out there Posts: 102 Just for more info for the guys/girls doing their ATPL subjects... I self studied mine with AFT notes and it all went ok. FP - i did last, obviously the hardest but only 17 questions in the exam, all be it very drawn out ones, finished with 3 mins to spare. Be careful with "which answer is closest to" questions with PNRs etc. Eg i had a) 570nm b) 610 nm c) 540 nm d) 510 nm My depress pnr came out to be 590nm which i thought was accurate in my planning, i did it again with a bit more accuracy and got 595nm which favoured answer b! Sys - just a lot of content to study, anything from FMS to Centre of Pressure movement, nothing really too in depth though, 50 "one mark" questions P + L - to be accurate with your graphs, for some reason i got a lot of CAO 20.7.1.b. stuff (gradients etc) and load sheets working out last min. pax adjustment Nav - not too bad if you can get you head around off track pnrs, again be accurate with your map work and you shouldnt have too many troubles. Generally speaking, focus more on the 4-5 mark questions

13th September 2008, 07:06 #64 (permalink) ksa5223 Date: Nov 2007 Location: WADD Posts: 145 been studying since 9am :-S Are there any offtrack pnrs in this exam?

13th September 2008, 07:25 #65 (permalink)

Lasiorhinus Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Quote: Originally Posted by The Hill My depress pnr came out to be 590nm which i thought was accurate in my planning, i did it again with a bit more accuracy and got 595nm which favoured answer b! Get a rough estimate of where your PNR should be - then instead of working out a whole flight plan based on where you *think* the PNR should be, work out a flight plan based on using the closest of the actual answers to where you think the PNR is. They give you four answers. One of them IS correct. Use that to your advantage. ksa5223: No, there are no off-track PNRs in Flight Planning. That's just a Navigation question. There are, however, PNRs to other airports on track, that may not be either your departure or destination.

13th September 2008, 11:09 #66 (permalink) harropster

Date: Feb 2007 Location: Brisbane Posts: 24 They must have added new questions to the database, cause none of my group got question on Bali!

13th September 2008, 13:01 #67 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Just sat it. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Before I get into it, is there anybody getting ready to sit the exam soon? I just sat it and failed (I missed a 5 pointer which is really getting to me now) and I'd love to hear what your up to. I've been chatting to another bloke from PPRuNe and it's been mutually beneficial. Anybody in Perth? Quote: Are there any offtrack pnrs in this exam?

As Lasiorhinus said there may be; I had a PNR question with PNR for an (almost) enroute aerodrome. O n a flight YSSY YPPH via H44 and Q32 overhead MTP BW is ?????, PH is Accept becoming Suit with 30 min fuel (Inter), PAD is Suit. What is PNR Norm Ops PH - PAD (ignore lateral distance between Q32 and Y135) distance reference PH? I was really thrown by that one and spent too long on it (and I got it wrong which could have saved me from failing). What they meant by ignore lateral distance between Q32 and Y135 is that as both are one-way routes and the question was for Norm Ops (no reason to be able to fly against the route direction and Q32 is a bit less direct than Y135) fly back on Y135 but don't worry about travelling the 30 or so nm south to get to it. I really can't believe that I let that distract me from the other issues and I ended up using the wrong reserves (applied the Inter at PAD, lost 5 points or 10%, another $170 in two weeks thank you very much).

Quote: They must have added new questions to the database, cause none of my group got question on Bali! The Bali question on my exam was just whilst enroute to Bali from BN on G326 with a GW of ????? at VINAX and TAT of ?? what is fuel burn between VINAX and GUNAM? (both are still points over the continent and there was no need to know anything about Indon). I don't know if anybody else has had other Bali questions but I'd be interested to hear them. As somebody who recently failed I would emplore anybody preparing to sit it to do two things: Practice doing the bare minimum to answer the question accurately (if they only ask for flight fuel or other fuel burn derived answer don't worry about the GW, Lnd Wt, ETI). Do lots and lots of practice exams. Five Rob Avery exams (purchased after failing) cost me about $55. Resitting will cost me about $160 (I really don't want to re-resit). Good luck, FRQ CB 13th September 2008, 13:29 #68 (permalink) The Hill Date: Oct 2006 Location: out there Posts: 102 FRQ CB.....dont worry too much mate, not the first and certaintly wont be the last. Rob Averys practice exams are a good choice, they are quite in depth, but if you can do those you can do anything

13th September 2008, 13:53 #69 (permalink) Lasiorhinus Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Commiserations FRQ - its no fun to miss out on an exam, but it's a learning experience, and you're probably in the majority of people who sit flight planning by getting to go back and give it another shot.

Quote: Originally Posted by FRQ Charlie Bravo On a flight YSSY YPPH via H44 and Q32 overhead MTP BW is ?????, PH is Accept becoming Suit with 30 min fuel (Inter), PAD is Suit. What is PNR Norm Ops PH - PAD (ignore lateral distance between Q32 and Y135) distance reference PH? Dont get confused by the way they word things. (OK, easier said than done with CASA questions). Off-track PNRs are not examined in this exam - if you attempt to use Off-track PNR methods to solve this, you'll likely confuse yourself, run out of time, and with certainty, get the question wrong. It is to be treated as an on-track PNR, and the clue is in the phrase "ignore lateral distance between Q32 and Y135". Yes, they're one-way routes, but to get from Q32 to Y135 would require, as you say, travelling some 40 nm south before turning left for Adelaide. This overcomplicates the question and actually means it wouldn't be asking for the simple PNR, so they instruct you to ignore the lateral distance, ie, assume there is no lateral displacement, ie, assume you can just chuck a u-turn and fly back to Adelaide, ie, assume Adelaide was actually on-track. Yes, its a poor way to word it, but they're actually trying to make it simpler. You're given a weight over Mount Hope (it will more than likely be a Gross Weight, or a Fuel On Board weight), and more than likely, a speed and height. Work out how much fuel you have available for PNR calculations (making sure to deduct the in- flight fixed reserve, not the planning stage fixed reserve), and draw up a flight plan. Find an equal point - that is, a point that on one side, both the O ut and Home legs are identical, and the other side is not. Mount Hope VOR is a good equal point. Work backwards - you know your landing weight, (take off all the flight fuel youve calculated to be available but don't take off your weather reserves if any. In this case, none required.) so you can also quickly calculate your Top of Descent weight, to the kilogram. Work out how much fuel you'd burn flying back from MTP to Adelaide (it's about 160nm), and deduct that fuel from your available. Now you can work out your distance to the PNR, and once you've got a distance, read the question again to make sure they wanted it in distance from Adelaide, not from Perth, because it would really be unpleasant to get the right PNR but still pick the wrong answer. Good luck on your re-sit - feel free to PM me if you want to have a chat about any of the exam. 13th September 2008, 17:31 #70 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ

Age: 31 Posts: 544 Dead weight fuel and the CASA ATPL Information Booklet -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Here's a curly one I found in my old uni notes: Flight from Alpha to C harlie with an intermediate stop at Bravo where there is no fuel. Consider only Normal Ops. Flight fuel A to B 5200 kg Flight Fuel B to C 4200 kg Alpha and Bravo are suitable but Charlie is Acceptable and Suitable with INTER Using Fleet Basic Weight what is max payload out of Alpha? The answer involved calculating the FF, Reserves, Holding and Taxi. What threw me was the calculation of 10% CR for sector 1. Surely the FF for sector 2 covers that. I understand that a company would be pretty pissed off to have the sector 2 fuel used unexpectedly on sector one but if it's a question of Max Payload / Min Fuel then I would argue that the answer in my book is not min fuel. For those playing at home the answer was that it was Landing Weight limited at Bravo. There is one sentence at the end which reads "Assume contingency reserve is consumed but fixed reserve intact for the purpose of flight planning" but I find that a bit misleading. Surely I could understand being told to err on the side of caution and consider the CRs as cumulative but that's not what I'm told. Based on that the sentence that I ought to consider the CR as consumed I expect to be able to use every KG of 1st sector CR as payload (since I'll burn it off before landing thereby meeting but not exceeding my MLW). If you come across this in a CASA exam then please share. It is my understanding that C Rs (like holding fuel) are not cumulative (but commercial considerations such as not wanting to be stranded in Woop Woop may dictate otherwise... but this is a C ASA exam). FRQ CB PS Tiger19 with regards to our conversation earlier about the use of only the first portion of a return trip of multiple sectors/forecast areas page 6-2 of my Aviation Theory Centre book pointed out the guide to data extraction given in the ATPL Information Booklet. From there I found out why the texts we have always gave SGRs based on only the early sector WX and Fuel Flow. Para 3.4.2 states that it it the Temp at the point of failure which should be used (and by extension of this logic find the conditions for your SGR calculation). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo : 13th September 2008 at 17:33. Reason: Opinions are like belly buttons... so I replaced the word 16th September 2008, 01:09 #71 (permalink) ksa5223

Date: Nov 2007 Location: WADD Posts: 145 Can anyone break down the usual content of the exam like layout wise. I have heard the last 4 - 5 Q's are 5 markers? are these things like PNRDP PNR 1ENGINOP DP 2E ? I am a bit concerned as my average time to complete a PNR 2E/ PNR DP is about 20 minutes. 20 x 17 questions = 340minutes/60 = 5.7 hours I hope i get ' dp's in the exam ? they are great!

16th September 2008, 01:35 #72 (permalink) DUXNUTZ

Date: May 2004 Location: Cheeseville, USA Posts: 309 What is the easiest way to answer a PNR question? From my limited look at it there's two types, over a waypoint at certain weight (inflight) or Planned flight from A-B. I'm a tad confused on how the datum method comes into all this. Can anyone explain this in plain english... going a little nuts! -Dux 16th September 2008, 05:03 #73 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Q uote: What is the easiest way to answer a PNR question? DUXNUTS,

Best bet is to work out how much fuel you need to land with ( that you will be RETURNING to somewhere so forget fuel needed for holding or whatever at any aerodrome to which you are not RETURNING). Best way to do this is to see how much fuel is available, subtract holding (if appropriate), subtract taxi (if appropriate), subtract Fixed Reserve and this will give you fuel to be used for Flight Fuel plus 10% reserve (or in the case of DP this will give you flight fuel). Divide this number by 1.1 and you will have Flight Fuel. Put a BIG FAT CIRCLE around that number as you will need it in 5 to 10 minutes time. Choose one of the multi-choice answers (1 in 4 chance of getting lucky) but don't waste too much time trying to choose the right one (if doing a practice question and there's no multi choice just go about 3/4 of the way and try that). Do a flight plan from current position (on the ground or in the air or even though you may be on the ground still they may say that from the flight plan you will be at position X at such and such GW... you beauty, they've just saved you the hard work) out to your chosen guessed PNR and then back to the RETURN aerodrome for a landing. If the flight fuel used equals the one with the BIG FAT CIRCLE then you chose well and you can move on. If your flight plan burnt too much then you went too far... how far, I'm glad you asked. the PNR formula? Simply divide the excess fuel burnt by the sum of cruise SGR home plus cruise SGR out (SGR = Fuel burnt divided by the nm covered or roughly and more easily calculated Fuel Flow per hour divided by Ground speed). This will give a small number which is how far off your guessed PNR used in the flight plan is from the real PNR. Simply subtract (if you flew too far / burnt too much fuel) or add (it you flew too little / burnt too little fuel). PNR is a fancy way of saying that you want to give it a real good crack of getting to where you want to go BUT if needed you have to have a back door for safety. If your flight plan has you landing at the RETURN aerodrome with more fuel than your absolute minimum (VR + FR + Holding + Taxi in) then you didn't go far enough (and you didn't do your best to get the payload to the destination). If you don't have those then you'll have gone too far (and broken the law). FRQ CB PS keep the questions coming (you too KSA5223)

16th September 2008, 05:05 #74 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Q uote: Can anyone break down the usual content of the exam like layout wise. ksa5223, Expect about 17 questions for a total of 50 points (making a 5 pointer worth 10%, 2 pointer 4% etc). I suggest the following maximum times (averaged, some 5s may take longer than other 5s): 5 points - 25 minutes

4 points - 17 minutes 3 points - 9 minutes 2 points - 4 minutes 1 point - 2 minutes Start with the 5s then the 4s (mathematically there shouldn't be too many 4s) then skip the 3s (I find them more time consuming for only 3 points and at this point in the exam maybe give the brain a minute to chill out) and go do some 2s before returning to the 3s. Do the 1 pointers last (but give yourself a chance to get them right, maybe save the last 5 minutes for them). Depending on the exact breakdown that you get on the day the above ought to take you about 180 minutes so if you stick to it you will have little time to relax and recheck your answers. Keep the posts coming. FRQ CB ALSO Just in case I lead anybody astray please note that I made a mistake in a post a few weeks ago regarding DP holding fuel for weather. As soon as I can get around to it I will fix it soon by means of an edit to that post and then I will edit out this paragraph. 16th September 2008, 05:32 #75 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Attention Mingalababya and anybody else I may have lead astray: Please note that I made a big mistake in a post a few weeks ago regarding DP holding fuel for weather. I have fixed it by means of an edit to that post. FRQ CB 16th September 2008, 06:02 #76 (permalink) ksa5223 Date: Nov 2007 Location: WADD Posts: 145 FRQ Charlie Bravo -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Gooday :-P

Thanks for that info there, very helpful. What sort of questions are usually the 5 markers? Normally PNR 2E's / PNR 1ENGINOP's? They seem the hardest they could throw at us? Which notes did you use for study FRQ? Did you do the AFT prac exams prior to attempting the AFPA exam? I am self studying the AFT course notes at the moment, purchased them not long after a Secombe Course. Also what sort of tips do you guys have for speed? I'll start: A hell of alot of tabs through my book for quick ref. Hand wrote all the SAT's next to the TAT's for all flight levels, for TAS calculations. MN x 39 x SQRT (273+SAT) Highlighter for the different direction FL's (fair common one :-P)

16th September 2008, 06:57 #77 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 I'm the last guy to ask about speeding things up. I failed and I'm now trying to fix that and speed is my biggest issue. I did it at uni three years ago (but didn't take the exam as my lecturer told us all to do) and then went back and did the AFT (N Higgins) distance learning course. I'm now doing five practice exams put out by Rob Avery (very different method to AFT but the answers are the same of course). When I get a bit more time tonight I'll PM you a list of tips I have for speeding things up. The biggest one I have to say is flipping to the rarely used cruise planning section and just getting the TAS for a given FL and Mach No then adjusting AS PER THE MANUAL with +/- 1 knot per degree +/- ISA (this is not a rule of thumb, it comes from the actual manual). OK, Off to the local library to study so will be a while before I post again (much to the applause of the masses I'm sure). FRQ CB PS anybody in Perth studying for this? I'd love to get together. No kissing and no hand-holding... I might let you see my elbows but not on a first date (sorry).

16th September 2008, 07:31 #78 (permalink) ksa5223

Date: Nov 2007 Location: WADD Posts: 145 Cool that would be good, cheers. Yes, I am already familiar with the "stealing the TAS" method, although found it pretty quick to do the calculator method :-P

16th September 2008, 15:58 #79 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Time Tips -------------------------------------------------------------------------------"Stealing the TAS" eh, didn't know it had a name. Yeah, sometimes the calculator is faster, depends on how many fingers I have on how many pages or a myriad of other factors. You've got 15 minutes to get everything ready whilst sitting your practice exam so make sure that EVERYTHING is ready. Do a "data dump" with things like: writing down the formulae that you may sometimes mess up (in the heat of battle I sometimes can't think of the PNR or formulae to same me life), make up a chart with your fuel requirements (I write up a chart for the In-Flight fuel requirements which is similar in format to the Before-Flight chart on p. 1-17), if you're going to make a list of question numbers and their relative points (worth it if you plan on attacking the big ones first) set that up in those 15 minutes. draw mud maps on the top of all the flight planning forms (I use a combination method of mud maps and the flight plan). if you have any remaining time consider measuring two or three tracks (saves probably 2 minutes of exam time per trip) but avoid tracks which, without the information provided in the question, would involve the use of a TAC (unless you manage to get a TAC into the exam). Basically depending on which edition of the ERCs High you use (not all ERCs are exactly the same, especially when it comes to being near the Terminal Areas) you could look at H2 YCIN - YBAS, Townsville (WISKA is on the marked DME step at 90 DME)- Mt Isa - AS, Cairns (BULOK is on the marked 90 DME but is actually 92nm CS due to the dogleg) - Mt Isa - AS H3 AS - Ayers Rock - PH (Cunderdin is just past a marked DME step at 68 DME) (J64), PAD (WINCH is on the marked 90 DME) - MHP - PH, PH - PAD (The reverse trip via Y135 is only 7 nm shorter), PH (Pingelly is just past a marke DME step at 67 DME) - Hobart Yes there is some guessing with some of the positions that I've listed as XX DME but in my opinion you should be able to guess to within a mile or two. It all seems trivial but the 15 minutes are there and you certainly pay the ASL staff enough to use them however you need.

These are just ideas and if it doesn't suit you don't worry about it (it works for me but speaking with Tiger19 he reckons it's a bit too much messing around). I also believe that using large zones is of great benefit. Generally breaking a large sector into smaller zones will yield a slightly smaller fuel flow but if you know that then just go the faster method of the big zone and keep it in the back of your mind if torn between answers. (This is not good on small questions covering small sectors.) For flights around the WA/SA border look at the actual mag var if unsure whether to use 0 or 5 degrees on your winds. When you get a start zone weight (after having done your descent fuel) multiply NM by the generic SGR (SAR corrected with +/- 1 for +/- every 50 knots wind) then divide by half and subtract the start zone weight to get a more accurate EMZW (it will be a negative number but you'll know what to do with it). If it's dman close to being on the verge of a MZW requiring interpolation and one not requiring interpolation assume that someone is trying to screw you and go with the one that requires interpolation (more often than not they want to screw you). Don't forget to check it after getting a zone weight. If it's wrong then use the "wrong fuel" to estimate the new EMZW but no need to recheck this one (according to my uni lecturer) as it's more accurate than the SGR method (but just not quite close enough for an answer). If a question only asks for fuel then consider not worrying about Landing weight or even TOD weight (by this time you've already got your descent fuel/dist/time). Also, don't stress about checking that your landing weight is closer to 70,000 or 60,000 as this makes such a small difference. (I've noticed that my plans for Norm Ops are always nearest to 70t, DP and OEI are usually a bit under 70t and if I plan to an alternate it's usually just under 65). Rob avery suggests always going to halfway between the figures. I think that's a bit annoying. On the 3, 4 and 5 markers skim the entire question especially the last paragraph which actually poses the question. You may well find that you don't have to do a whole plan (I did the whole plan and then found that they gave me GW at position X, I didn't redo the whole thing, I just found the different weight at X according to my plan which was about 1000 kg off and corrected my numbers, just barely got that one right). Have some water on hand Highlight the One Engine Inop headings in your manual so that you to multiply by TWO (of course the fuel burn of 6000 kg per hour should tip you off). Put some blank post-its in your manual so that you've got some ready made book marks. Put some nice folds in your ERCs High so that you can easily fold it however you need it for a particular route in the exam. I took particular care placing folds in ERCs 2 and 3 so that between most major cities I can have only the relevant parts of the chart showing with nice clean folds with minimal re-arranging. It's not pretty but it's practical. OK, that's all I can think of. Most of those are half-baked ideas from a guy who has yet to so take it with a pinch of salt. FRQ CB --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by FRQ Charlie Bravo : 21st September 2008 at 14:15. Reason: Added 5th Bullet point then points about chart folding.

16th September 2008, 16:38 #80 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 A Question -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Has anybody ever come across a question where you had to carry holding fuel for DP ops because the weather at the destination was forecast to be below Landing Minima (closed i.e. not Acceptable)? I've not seen it in my practice exams but one question specifically mentioned that weather was below Alt Minima but not below Landing Minima (no mention of the words Suitable or Acceptable, not that I needed them). The question was straight forward but it got me thinking about that one. According to the Rob Avery book I have the cheat sheet simply says not required for DP so maybe CASA just doesn't ask that question. FRQ CB 17th September 2008, 04:21 #81 (permalink) ksa5223 Date: Nov 2007 Location: WADD Posts: 145 Some good ideas there Ta Did you get any DP questions? if so was it simply finding where it was/ or find where it was then fly to it to get a GW @ etc. Any Gear Down / Yaw Damper / Fuel Dump Q's? I understand how the marks per question work now, but am wondering what sort of questions are actually in it. Did you do the AFT cyber exams prior to sitting? If so, how were they compared to the exam in of style of questions. Did you have any trouble with the Prac Exams. I am curious as you failed and most people I hear get through it after doing the AFT prac exams. KSA 17th September 2008, 06:16 #82 (permalink) mingalababya

Date: Feb 2004 Location: Melbourne, China Posts: 335 Q uote: Originally Posted by FRQ Charlie Bravo Attention Mingalababya and anybody else I may have lead astray: Please note that I made a big mistake in a post a few weeks ago regarding DP holding fuel for weather. I have fixed it by means of an edit to that post. FRQ CB Thanks mate ... I haven't really looked at it since I last posted, but thanks for getting back to me on that. Really appreciate it. I'm finding flight planning to be a real ball breaker .. not so much the difficulty in the content, but the fact that there is so much number crunching needed in a limited amount of time. I'm the type who likes to check and recheck things .. it appears that there won't be any time for that if I was to complete the exam within the allotted time. Thanks FRQ CB for the tips on using the time allocated for the practice questions to prepare tables etc for calculations during the exam. 17th September 2008, 07:20 #83 (permalink) Lasiorhinus

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 DPs are basically gift marks. For some sample questions, you can have a look on the C ASA website, but any study material you have, will have practise questions in them. Lionel, Nathan, Rob and Gavin all give you a good feel for how the actual questions will be worded, and what they're looking for. If you can do their questions accurately, you'll do the exam accurately too. What you need to do, mingalababya, is be accurate on the first time you crunch any numbers. Don't go back and check, unless you really need to. If it's just a confidence thing, try a few practise questions without going back and checking, and see how good you can actually do it. Saves a lot of time when you only have to do each question once, instead of twice. 17th September 2008, 15:49 #84 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ

Age: 31 Posts: 544 No worries mingalababya (what's your name mean? Am I being culturally insensitive by asking?). I didn't get any questions on my exam (except for one really weird one where it was give but I had to plan Norm Ops to it and then OEI from it, basically just a straight forward plan but worded in such a way as to take a long long time to get my head around it... tossers). So here's the wording of a question which I think would require Holding Fuel for DP ops except that the question directs you to just overfly it (Cairns to Alice overflying Mt Isa): Quote: Mt Isa is forecast to be Suitable for the period of possible use if weather holding is carried to allow for INTERmittent deteriorations in cloud base and visibility due thunderstorms. Another fun one (nowhere in the question is there any mention of the words Acceptable or Suitable with respect to the destination aerodrome, but it is a PNR so you actually don't go there anyway):

Quote: Hobart airport is experiencing TEMPOrary weather conditions during the period of possible use, which will at times be below the alternate minima, but not below the landing minima. Wow, I forced myself to have an answer to all 5 point questions by 20 minutes on the timer today (individually, not as part of a practice exam). I averaged 22 minutes and got them all right, some small mistakes but only EMZW by a tonne which was damn close for fuel burn and even closer for PNRs. Like mingalababya I really feel the need to check and recheck so this was a good lesson. There is really no substitute for doing lots and lots of practice questions, it makes it easier to see the real story behind the numbers and methods. On a technical note I realised today that in all of the PNR questions I examined; once I had a difference in flight fuels (my planned vs what I ought to have) I could just use generic SARs (Norm Ops 10 + 10 = 20, OEI 10 + 11 = 21, DP 10 + 13 = 23) in place of the actual SGRs and still get the right answers. Maybe I got lucky, perhaps it's not worth the time saved (about 1.5 minutes). Also realised that SGR can come from two sources (one of which can sometimes be teased from the question itself), SGR = Fuel Flow / GS or Zone Fuel / Zone NM. One PNR question gave a BRW, a GW at TOC, then cruise reporting point 1, and cruise reporting point 2. My PNR guess was about 100 nm past the second reporting point so I just calculated the fuel burn between points one and two (difference in GWs given in question) divided by the nm to get an SGR and then applied that to the next 100 nm to my PNR. Sure I might have had a different EMZW if I'd done I the hard way but over 100 nm it was going to make bugger all difference. After that slick and easy calculation all I had to do was fly home from the guessed PNR at FL130. I had a hefty amount of fuel left to burn so after the correction I was off by about 13 nm from the correct answer (and about 140 nm from the nearest wrong answer). By Jove I think he's got it! Now one that's really pissing me off: Pre-flight planning for O ne Inop PNR Cairns to Alice via Mt Isa. I've worked out a GW for the start of the OEI return to Cairns of 72,426, (the answer from the book comes to 72,450) so I round down to 72,000. It is ISA+3

so I round that to ISA+5 (and interploate). I plug this into the OEI Alt Capability chart and I come up with 25,440 feet or for a flight to the East FL250. Rob Avery chose FL230 (and burnt a lot more fuel). I got the answer right (reference dist Mt Isa choices were 345, 270, 615, 180or 100) but I was still 15 nm off of his answer. Did I miss something? If you've done the AFT course and have seen the Rob Avery way of doing do you think that with his method he simply burnt a bit less fuel getting to the PNR (50 kg would do it) and round up to 73,000 kg for the table. Even old Rob seemed to have the same fuel flow as me but still went for the lower level (he doesn't give a GW just an SGR... that's his method I suppose). Good night possoms. FRQ CB

18th September 2008, 10:47 #85 (permalink) ksa5223 Date: Nov 2007 Location: WADD Posts: 145 Booked my exam for next Tuesday I had similar issues with different FL selections in 1EngInop PNR's. I use a TAT comparison method rather than the tables on page 5 - 6. Although was told by Nathan that CASA use that table for FL selection. Makes no difference normally, either way I still end up being able to get the answer right so I think it doesn't matter as long as we are within 2000ft of the right level. I guess sometimes even they get things wrong 18th September 2008, 12:57 #86 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Q uote: I use a TAT comparison method Ploise explain. Something to do with going to the OEI LRC pages and comparing your SZW and TAT/OAT with available FLs? I've not heard of that one before. What are the rules? (If using a forecast OAT do you have to round to nearest Mach no and elicit the TAT?) Does this save time? I am resitting on Tuesday morning, I wonder if it is worth learning a new method. FRQ CB

18th September 2008, 14:07 #87 (permalink) Lasiorhinus

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 FRQ, - no, don't try and learn new rules now. You already know what you're doing - you just ran out of time. Don't get confused by this method - its so confusing Ive never heard of it myself. 18th September 2008, 15:50 #88 (permalink) tiger19 Date: Sep 2008 Location: oz Posts: 38 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------i sat the exam yesterday 2nd attempt (1st attempt 68%) and got 92%. I did it self study from word go . It took 2.5 hours and I never rushed. 17 questions, 3 five markers, 4 four markers, 4 three markers, 4 two markers and 2 one markers. I basically practiced nathans sample exams 2nd time around for about 4 hours a day over 2 weeks and it covered every type of question in the exam. If you can do nathans sample questions, you will the exam easy. I worked on 20 minutes for a 5 marker. in yesterdays exam there were pnr's, 's, altitude capability, tail skid extension etc. Just like in his trial exams. 19th September 2008, 04:25 #89 (permalink) ksa5223

Date: Nov 2007 Location: WADD Posts: 145 thanks for that info there tiger, I was a bit skeptical as to whether his trial exams were enough to get me through after hearing our friend FRQ failed Now with regained confidence, back to more F planning study, on a Friday to FRQ, stick with your method, but the method I speak of goes like this: Situation: Your GW @ the PNR2E is 72 Tonnes The MET for the next LEG back @FL235 = ISA + 5 Refer Page 5 -13 FL250: STD TAT = -11 At 72 Tonnes, MAX TAT AT WHICH EPR CAN BE SET = -0 Therefore we can accept an Isa Deviation of up to and including ISA + 11, since we are only ISA + 5 we can do this level.

What About FL270: FL270: STD TAT = -16 At 72 Tonnes, MAX TAT AT WHICH EPR CAN BE SET = -17 Therefore we require an Isa Deviation of atleast ISA - 1 or COLDER to operate at this level. FL290 @ 72T there isn't any data so thats easy, therefore not possible.

19th September 2008, 06:29 #90 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Q uote: I was a bit skeptical as to whether his trial exams were enough to get me through after hearing our friend FRQ failed Yeah, I might sound like I know what I'm talking about but it's pretty much 90% BS and 10% luck. Actually, I'm shite at tests. Always have been. ~FRQ CB

19th September 2008, 06:40 #91 (permalink) ryda Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 41 Hey Tiger, I sat the exam yesterday also and got 92% too. I got 3- 5 markers, 2- 4 markers, 5- 3 markers, 5-2 markers and 2-1 markers. This is my first attempt after a solid week of going through practice exams. I went through unsw and they prepare you really well. They do give harder questions than the real exam. On the first question I did, which was a 5 marker pnr, I spent over half an hour because I realized near the end I read the question wrong. I kinda freaked out and really thought I would run out of time. By the end though, I had half an hour left and felt somewhat confident. I somehow managed to get 2 simple questions wrong. One was determine FL to cruise at and another was determine distance for the climb. My advice is to do heaps and heaps of practice questions and RTFQ.

19th September 2008, 13:30 #92 (permalink) ReverseFlight

Date: Nov 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 576 Hi mingalababya, sorry about my absence. I've been busy with my MECIR but now that's done. I still don't have my technical notes with me but I will try to give you some advice about exam tactics, especially regarding time spent on questions. As one guru said, do not use the flight planning tables. They get shredded at the end of the exam and so no marks for those. Just draw the box diagram and allow enough width for each relevant segment of the flight. Do more practice questions and you will find familiar routes being asked over and over again. The numbers will stick in your mind, eg 1066, 418 and so on ... you won't need to pick out those tiny numbers in the exam any more. If there is a slight variation to the route, just use your own memorised number, it is close enough for the correct answer. Each segment should have an imaginary table underneath it but don't waste time drawing lines or labelling units (eg tonnes, kg, kg/nm etc). Each mini-table should be in the same format with the same items in the same order (eg EMZW, SAR etc), so you can pick out what you want later. If fuel weight is what you need, circle it and at the end add all the circles together to get your answer. Needless to say, know the rules really really well so you don't doubt your application of them. Look through from the begining of this thread and you will see that each parameter falls within a narrow range, so eg if you find you are burning only 1000 kgs/hr then something's wrong. If you do not get the answer after about 15 minutes, skip it and come back after you've done all the other questions.

20th September 2008, 14:04 #93 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 I just thought that I'd mention that I added another tip to a previous post (click here to read and go to the 5th bullet point). Basically with regards to using the 15 minutes of practice exam time for preparation I thought that measuring a few common trips could be beneficial with a bit of luck. Some people opine simply writing the distance on your ERC but I don't think I've got the guts. And no, I don't plan on using all of my ideas on the day, ~FRQ CB

20th September 2008, 14:41 #94 (permalink) Lasiorhinus

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Quote: Originally Posted by FRQ Charlie Bravo Basically depending on which edition of the ERCs High you use pleasepleasepleaseplease use the current edition!

20th September 2008, 15:36 #95 (permalink) ryda Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 41 I wrote down all the distances while i was doing trial exams and highlighted the common routes. The supervisor didnt check my ERC, only checked the 727 book, but i wrote the distances really small just in case 20th September 2008, 18:53 #96 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Yeah, I do use current ERCs but the problem is with all the practice exams. Some require TACs (no longer permitted in the exam) and some refer to non-existent reporting points/airways (like the one I bought 4 days ago which refers to PONAN (out of DN), Y19 (PH - AD), Y118 and W109 (AD - MEL)). Not a big deal just annoying, next time I'll check the copyright date (I accept some blame but seriously, the folks at Western Airmotive should be ashamed to have an 11 year old ATPL FLP book on the shelves, at least mark it down for clearance or something). On an another matter I've got a 5 point PN R question I'd like to bounce off of somebody. Having studied AFT notes I'm really butting heads with some Rob Avery answers (and I just cannot understand his methods). For example I got a dist to PNR which was right in the middle of two available answers. No matter what I did to tidy up nothing really changed so I reasoned a guess (wrongly). I was 24 nm off one way and 26 the other way and there's nothing I can see that would have changed my answer other than simply selecting a different initial guessed PNR to change my EMZW and on and on and on. It's 2 am and I am so sick of that damned blue book (mostly I am annoyed because I really feel like I understand the subject). So yeah, if you'd like to try a 5 point PNR I'd be more than happy to PM it to you. (Besides, I think that copyrights expire after 100 years so this book hasn't got long left. Project Gutenburg here I come.). ~FRQ CB

21st September 2008, 03:11 #97 (permalink) ryda

Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 41 Sure, i'll try it. I found out that most pnr's I find are usually less than the answer, so i would go up. 21st September 2008, 08:27 #98 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 B727 Manual page 6-3 (Emergency) 2 engines inop Cruise Range Capability chart. My manual (2001 copy) must be a photocopy of a photocopy of the serviette which has some residual ink on it from the time when it was once used to save somebody's place in their photocopied manual (which would explain the coffee stain ring). I can't make out the numbers in the middle of the chart: "Start Driftdown Gross Weight ~ 1000kg" It looks like maybe 65, 75 and 85 from the bottom up. My Rob Avery exam had a question (the answer to which has allowed me allowed me to deduce that the middle number must be something between 73 and 76... must be 75). Any takers? Maybe C ASA should think about putting out some new manuals (truer to the "original"). ~FRQ CB 21st September 2008, 15:38 #99 (permalink) Lasiorhinus Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 FRQ, I actually think its the other way - 65, 75, 85, from the top, down. Reason being, if your GW is up around the 85 tonne mark, you're not going to be as high to start with, so your driftdown will be quicker - the bottom line only allows for short driftdowns. I dont know. I never use that page. For a good laugh at the quality of the book, though, have a look at page 2 - 6 and see if you can find anything there that perhaps is out of place...

22nd September 2008, 10:59 #100 (permalink) aviator777

Date: Jun 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 27 Fuel required for DP -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Maybe a silly question, but my brain is numb from study... Scenario is flight DN to ML via o'head AS. DP distance is given for AS-ML sector, as is data for overhead AS, and BRW. Objective is to calc total fuel required to cover the DP scenario. Both AS and ML require 30 mins INTER fuel to become Suitable.. The solution calculates flight onwards from to ML. In this case, holding is irrelevant due to DP rules, so it makes sense to continue to ML. However......... If this was a OEI situation, and the destination (ML) was Acceptable and required 30mins to become Suitable, and AS was Suitable, would you plan to AS, for the purposes of calculating fuel required for DP scenario in accordance with company policy? Some questions of this type specify which airport to return to, but this question got me thinking. So do you plan to the airport with most favourable conditions?

22nd September 2008, 13:20 #101 (permalink) Lasiorhinus Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Critical Points are a time consideration. Point of No Returns are a fuel consideration. It doesn't matter whether you are going to need holding at the destination or not - what you're working out in a problem is the time taken to fly to either airport - not the time taken to pull up at the gate. If one of the airports needs holding fuel, well, carry holding fuel. Say you had your engine failure at a point other than the . If it's before the , you turn around and fly home. If it's after the , you keep going.

Quote: If this was a OEI situation, and the destination (ML) was Acceptable and required 30mins to become Suitable, and AS was Suitable, would you plan to AS, for the purposes of calculating fuel required for DP scenario in accordance with company policy? OK, say you had your engine failure 15 minutes before you got the the . Would you then have enough fuel to go on to Alice and land with all reserves intact? 23rd September 2008, 09:30 #102 (permalink) ksa5223

Date: Nov 2007 Location: WADD Posts: 145 ed What a #$*& of a subject though. BTW FRQ I got that PNR you were talking about for a return to YPAD via a difference track. In the last 20 minutes I re did it and changed by answer and got it right. Had to be one of the worst worded ones ive seen so far. "ignore lateral distance blah blah blah". I just flew out NO, then dropped down to the return route on the way back which was pretty much the same distance anyway. One question you may get is finding your TAS, your given a MN, TAT, FL. But told you encounter severe turbulence and reduce to VB (Turbulence penetration speed). Don't use the given MN, enter your buffet chart @ the FL and determine VB, I think its 280kts up to FL 334 then .80M above. Get your Speed if its 280KIAS, set it to your FL on your C R3, get a MN, then get a TAS from that MN. Best of luck to anyone about to sit it 23rd September 2008, 10:22 #103 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 ed -------------------------------------------------------------------------------What a shocker. I ed but F*** ME DEAD! Somehow I managed to get the AD - PH PNR dp wrong. Got a toddler to feed. Will debrief later, ~FRQ CB 23rd September 2008, 10:26 #104 (permalink)

ryda Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 41 ksa, I got that pnr question in my exam also. Luckily I had done similar practice questions the day before. Congratulations to the both of you! 23rd September 2008, 10:57 #105 (permalink) Lasiorhinus

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Well done, all of you!

23rd September 2008, 12:54 #106 (permalink) ksa5223

Date: Nov 2007 Location: WADD Posts: 145 C heers Fellas, I tell you it feels great to place my AFT book and Secombe flight planning AND the 727 manual (already don P&L) in my bookshelf in the never to be opened again pile. Now there leaves NAV and SYSTEMS. Anyone planning self study for this course, I would recommend the AFT notes for a more easy going relaxing learning curve. Unfortunately the only way to this one is to do the work. Good luck to others taking the plunge A Couple of tips: Highlight all the main ROUTES Write the total distance of the route in (brackets) around a central area of the route. (great for 's) Write distances from a midpoint from the route with an arrow in each direction indicating distance to. Make sure they add up to what you have in the brackets. Also distances from common points where the MET may be subdivided write the distances back to your home and destination. KSA 23rd September 2008, 16:05 #107 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Hey KSA, Why not just wait a while to finish those last two exams. You know go travelling or something... then you can come back after they've all lapsed and have just as much fun ing AFPL again!!! So only one surprise today but it came in the form of a 2 point question so not a terrible surprise (and I got it right). Given fuel burn for NO, OEI and DP for a flight Auckland (Acceptable becoming Suitable with 30 minutes holding fuel for weather) to Sydney (Suitable) what is maximum payload. For starters the airports are irrelevant (the foreign airport is just there to scare you) and it seems straight forward but wait, what's this??? The question actually says (and here's where I feel for the non-native English speakers): Flight Fuel Normal Ops XX,XXX from Auckland to to Sydney, Flight Fuel One Engine Inop XX,XXX from Auckland to to Auckland Flight Fuel Depressurised XX,XXX From Auckland to to Sydney Normal Ops looks to require the most fuel but then looking closer it looks like they want you to go back to Auckland which requires an additional 2,000 KG of holding fuel. WTF? Anyway, O EI is now the most critical scenario and it was MZFW limited (but I only discovered that after first falling for the Norm Ops scenario) and I'm positive about that as I got it right in the end. (I've approximated the wording of the above scenarios, if anyone can refresh my memory I'd be happy to amend my post.) One little tip that I would add for those preparing to do this exam would be to prime your brain with a straight forward question in the hour leading up to the exam, just to be able to hit the ground running. Maybe even one that you know the answer to. I found that to be a tremendous help. (O f course, nobody knows your brain as well as you so take that advice with a pinch of salt). FRQ CB

24th September 2008, 00:41 #108 (permalink) Cap'n Arrr

Date: Jun 2007 Location: I'm right behind you!!! Posts: 486 I'm praying I don't get one of those FRQ CB... Auckland isn't on the Jepp charts...

24th September 2008, 02:48 #109 (permalink) ryda Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 41 You dont need the charts for anything for that question Cap'n. Just work out the FO B of each situation to find the MBRW, then you can work out the max payload.

MBRW is the least of the three: 1) Structural limits (89350kg, if i correctly) or 2) MLW + FBO or 3) MZFW + FOB 24th September 2008, 09:57 #110 (permalink) ksa5223 Date: Nov 2007 Location: WADD Posts: 145 Good work ing FRQ, that happened to my cousin, had to do them all again! I think the timeframe is 3 years. I think I did my BAK exam in November 07, so I think at this rate I should be apples KSA 24th September 2008, 14:54 #111 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 I know someone (quite a well respected instructor around here) who had ed 6 of them and then had his personal life fall into a heap (new job with related endorsement/training, relationship issues & death of loved one in a matter of a few months). They lapsed before he learnt that you can apply to CASA for an extension... Last I heard he was off to the US to get a three day quickie. FRQ CB 27th September 2008, 16:56 #112 (permalink) DUXNUTZ Date: May 2004 Location: Cheeseville, USA Posts: 309 ed exam this last week thanx to all the constructive posts in here... definitely some nervous moments between clicking submit and getting the result. Can't emphasise enough spending a week and a half to get up to speed doing practise questions.

Do a course somewhere! I found the UNSW course to be sufficient to , if a little too quick in the delivery. All the material came so fast it was hard to keep ones head above water. Took me a good near week and a half just to be able to 'get it'. What was good was the questions covered in class were way harder than the exam so prepared one well. My ATPL Performance exam had some stuff from Flight Planning in it so you may want to do this one next. Good luck. 28th September 2008, 04:29 #113 (permalink) Lasiorhinus

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Well done Duxnutz. Those three seconds between clicking Submit, and before your result comes up are the longest three seconds in the whole course.

28th September 2008, 07:42 #114 (permalink) devolved

Date: Apr 2005 Location: in a fantasy world that is aviation. Posts: 75 ill second Duxnutz comments with doing a course somewhere. I also did a UNSW course (perhaps in his class), however had to study up Flight Planning whilst doing the other classes (perf. systems & nav) during the day. Still got through, so its not impossible, im not exactly the brightest spark about either. A tip that i wish i took was, get a calc thats identical to ASLs. I was so used to mine which is relatively new and has a nice screen that works like a memory function. I was constantly finding i was making little figure trouble errors with my calc during the exam which ment eating away at the precious time remaning Good luck to u guys/girls still bout to sit it. I have a bonfire to light 28th September 2008, 10:52 #115 (permalink) ksa5223

Date: Nov 2007 Location: WADD Posts: 145 thats why you sneak in a Casio Scientific Calculator , there was no way I was using that tiny piece of crap they gave me, after doing the hsc only 2 years ago, I am somewhat attached to my calculator!!! Pocket it and bust it out when the examiner sits down, even if they notice it, most don't bother interrupting you if you look busy/stressed. I used it for all exams But if a Calculator transition is no biggie, you can buy the exact Calculator given to you in the exam from:

http://www.aft.com.au 28th September 2008, 14:00 #116 (permalink) ryda Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 41 Careful with the calculator, I think some use the Aurora while others use Canon. The ones that Bankstown use, are the Canon LS-82Z which can be bought from O fficeworks for around $15.

28th September 2008, 17:09 #117 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Good point about the calculators. First time around I had a piece of crap one with a crap battery. It's dual power but fat lot of good that did me in the Perth ASL dungeon. I should have asked for another but A. the clock was ticking and B. it was kinda good enough. You can bet I checked it the second time. FRQ CB Oh, I just practised with a dodgy little Casio (sqr rt button was in wrong place, that was my only hiccough). 29th September 2008, 02:35 #118 (permalink) DUXNUTZ Date: May 2004 Location: Cheeseville, USA Posts: 309 Yeah i actually made a comment to the testing guy about the calculator i was given (ASL Bankstown). The buttons had alot of play in them and it looked worn out. I imagine it saw alot of anger during its short life....

2nd October 2008, 01:54 #119 (permalink) Cap'n Arrr Date: Jun 2007 Location: I'm right behind you!!! Posts: 486 Q uote:

BTW FRQ I got that PNR you were talking about for a return to YPAD via a difference track. In the last 20 minutes I re did it and changed by answer and got it right. Had to be one of the worst worded ones ive seen so far. "ignore lateral distance blah blah blah". I just flew out NO, then dropped down to the return route on the way back which was pretty much the same distance anyway. When I did the course with LS at UNSW he said that came about because someone (angry shaking of fists in their general direction) pointed out to CASA that the AD - PH routes are mostly one way tracks, and that you cannot return to AD on a one way AD to PH track. Basically it means assume that as soon as you have the DP or Eng Fail or whatever, that you magically appear on the track next to yours, heading back to AD, and don't count the distance to get back on the other track i.e. ignoring lateral distance

2nd October 2008, 15:08 #120 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 The difference is only 7 nm. If there's any question in your mind (which there shouldn't be after reading this post) then just split the difference. Three or four nm won't make that much difference (all other factors being equal). You know, it is a prick of an exam but I can now say that it is all relevant material. Sure there's a FMS to do a lot of the crazy maths for the crew of a real AC but there is no substitute for sound theory. FRQ CB

3rd October 2008, 05:02 #121 (permalink) biggles7374 Date: Sep 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 135 Do you get flight planning forms in the Flight Planning exam or just the 5 sheets of lined green paper for you to draw out your own? Thanks 3rd October 2008, 05:55 #122 (permalink) aviator777

Date: Jun 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 27 FP forms

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------Yes you get about 5 in a booklet, double sided printing. A suggestion... try and fit 2 or more of the short plans per page (i.e. 3 and 4 mark questions), if in fact you use the forms for the short questions. If you fill the book and ask for another workbook, they will take away the first one. If you subsequently have time at the end to review those sticky questions you weren't sure about but pressed on to keep good time, some of your calculations will be gone, sitting in the big blue shredded waste bin. Simplest thing I can say is work at a steady (fast pace) just below the point where you start to fumble and make mistakes (silly errors, finger errors on the calculator) Typing on the calc at breakneck speed won't necessarily be better. Do lots of practice questions, and understand the principles, rather than repeating what you have done before. That way you can solve any problem presented to you, rather than parrot fashion re-hashing. There are always twists and variances to some exam questions. Try not to get flustered if you hit a tricky question (easy to say, I know). Even if you think you're behind on time, stay calm, press on and persevere. You might just be surprised when that magic box appears after a few long anxious seconds with "" Good luck! 4th October 2008, 04:38 #123 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 I'm about as green as pilots come but I reckon that there's a time and place to save trees and a time to kill them. Whilst you are sitting an exam for which you have shelled out $180 is no time to save trees (or whales, wombats, bilbies for that matter). Use paper and use lots of it. Also, when you get a second sheet DO NOT let them take away the first (they didn't even try with me). They've got no reason or right to do that and you may well need it for going over an earlier question (although you should be damned certain about changing an answer as your first 'guess' is usually right). FRQ CB

5th October 2008, 04:48 #124 (permalink) Cap'n Arrr

Date: Jun 2007 Location: I'm right behind you!!! Posts: 486 Argh! Doing the exam on Wednesday, madly revising all my notes. Can anyone give me an idea on how many and what type of questions they ask? Is it all page long flightplans, or are there a couple like "what is your TAS" or "how long to TOC " ?

5th October 2008, 08:45 #125 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Hey Capn, Good luck. For starters it's important to know that just because there may be a lot of words in the question and because it may be a 5 pointer doesn't mean that it's a long drawn out question. Indeed you may get a 3 pointer that's got 4 or 5 (planned or actual) ETAs and GWs at different points enroute, the reason it's only a three pointer is that they know you don't have to do a climb or as many sectors. Here's a breakdown that I compiled based on what I came across (I sat it twice) and what people told me to expect (corrected to equal exactly 50 points in 17 questions): 5 pointers X 3 or 4 4 pointer X 1 3 pointers X 3 or 4 2 pointers X 8 or 6 1 pointers X 2 or 0 If you assume the above and aim to do questions under the following maximum times: 5 pts < :25 4 pts < :15 3 pts < :09 2 pts < :04 1 pt < :02 you should come to < :180. Those are figures from before I made my second attempt, the only change I would make now is to aim for :20 5 markers (if one of them takes you :30 though that's probably OK) and probably allot a bit more time to the 1 pointers. What can save you (this is according to my experience and that of a mate) is getting at least one 5 or 4 marker done in 10-15 minutes, if you do that then you've just scored some extra time to devote to 2 tricky 3 pointers. As far as preparation goes don't waste your time doing too many 2 or 3 pointers, just hammer out lots of the 5s (the 1s, 2s and 3s are mostly based on portions of a full flight plan). Arrive at the exam early enough to do a simple flight plan (not a new one, choose one that you've done a few times) just to go through the motions and stretch your brain out in that special Flight Planning way.

Good luck again, FRQ CB

5th October 2008, 12:37 #126 (permalink) ryda Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 41 I had 17 questions in my exam. 32552-

5 markers 4 markers 3 markers 2 markers 1 markers

Start with the 5 markers first and work your way down. 8th October 2008, 05:21 #127 (permalink) Cap'n Arrr

Date: Jun 2007 Location: I'm right behind you!!! Posts: 486 ed it today, ah it feels good to have them all out of the way! Had the same question numbers as ryda, lots of OEI PNRs and one on calculating MZW, plus a couple ones about what time will you land. All in all not too bad, but definitely helps to have practiced lots of flight plans 8th October 2008, 11:56 #128 (permalink) Lasiorhinus

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Congrats, Cap'n Arrr. Its a good feeling to have it finished.

7th November 2008, 03:12 PLovett

Date: May 2002

#129 (permalink)

Location: Permanently lost Posts: 878 Resat the evil male offspring of a female dog yesterday and ed the flippin thing! My thanks to ASL and the supervisor at the Alice Springs centre for this. I had originally scheduled to sit the thing on wednesday. Drove down from Tennant Creek on tuesday, sweated blood that night and turned up on wednesday morning to be told; "Very sorry but the computer link is down and we cannot get it restored." Heavy sigh. Back in the car and drive another 500 km back to Tennant Creek. When I got back thought about this and knowing I had to fly back to Alice Springs the next day gave ASL a ring. "Would it be possible to reschedule the exam for thursday morning or at worst friday morning?" "Yes, that might be possible but we need to organise it with the superviser first." Few minutes later a call back to say all arranged. It turned out the superviser wasn't going to come in the following morning but said that she had felt sorry for me the previous day so agreed to the rescheduling. Thanks to both ASL and the suprviser. Between you both I have had a very heavy load removed.

7th November 2008, 05:47 FRQ Charlie Bravo

#130 (permalink)

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31 Posts: 544 Well done PLovet!!! And I thought I had it tough going across Perth to Canning Vale. ASL can be flexible if you give them sufficient notice (we do pay them enough). I requested to have a slot extended for IREX a while back and after a phone call between Canberra and Kunnas it was sorted. Do you have many more 500km drives to do exams in Alice? FRQ CB 7th November 2008, 06:31 hoopdreams

#131 (permalink)

Date: Jun 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 61 Well done PLovett! I we were discussing Planning when I overnighted in Tennant, another tick in the box! How many you got left? 7th November 2008, 11:40

#132 (permalink)

PLovett Date: May 2002 Location: Permanently lost Posts: 878 Another 3 to go - Navigation, Systems & Air Law. Going back to Maroochydore for the first 2 of those, I should self-study but finding the motivation hard and I like the break by going there. Given my background I have no option but to self-study for Air Law which I hope to get done early next year. By then I hope that I will have the last few night hours I need to actually get the licence. Gawd I wish I had done the bleedin things back in 2000 when I had the time, opportunity and finances to do them but back then I thought no-one will employ an old bugger like me in a transport cat aircraft. Hah! All the best to all other PPRuNers out there battling away to get these exams done. 9th November 2008, 01:16 Cap'n Arrr

#133 (permalink)

Date: Jun 2007 Location: I'm right behind you!!! Posts: 486 I know what you mean PLovett! I wish I'd done them back before I started working instead of waiting until I needed them to do it! Current L students take note

12th November 2008, 03:23 #134 (permalink) Mr_Pilot Date: Apr 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 31 It can be done. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------To anyone getting this far through reading through the notes, there is light at the end of the tunnel. I ed the exam this morning over extending myself by 6%... but it was a . Speaking to some friends of mine that were not so lucky when sitting theirs, make sure you have a week or so cleared just in case.... As things stad, it make take you a lot longer to relearn than to just get it over with the first time/second time/third.... just get it done once you start / basic point. I am saying this 2 years now after all my friends originally ed their exams. But I have been unscathed so far as to fail one... this is by far the worst! Be scared.... only if that is what motivates you! Good luck, and take not of the tips and hints in this thread, if only for the mental advantage of knowing what is ahead!

12th November 2008, 07:50 #135 (permalink) PLovett

Date: May 2002 Location: Permanently lost Posts: 878 Well done Mr P. When I tried to self-study for flight planning I just hit a brick wall and needed the pressure of the class-room situation to get back into it. My hat's well and truely tipped to those who can self- study for these exams. 13th November 2008, 04:01 #136 (permalink) brns2

Date: Apr 2008 Location: Brisbane Age: 25 Posts: 63 Help with simple question -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Flight from A-B BRW at A= 82,600 BW= 47,050 B is suitable, A is acceptable with 30mins holding Flight fuel NO=14600 FF NO to A-B then OEI From the = 15200 FF NO to A-b then DP from the = 16150 Max P/L is closest to: A)15150 B)16500 C)16100 (I put, but wrong, i calc max P/L to be 16,090, but C is closet) D) 15650 Am i missing something?

13th November 2008, 05:11 #137 (permalink) PLovett

Date: May 2002 Location: Permanently lost Posts: 878 brns, that looks horribly familiar and I also got it wrong. I think from memory that the 1- inop fuel requirement is the largest fuel load with reserves and comes to 20,320 kg. From there subtract fuel from BRW to check MZFW and if ok then subtract BW to get PL. The figure I got here was 15,230 kg for payload but hey, I got it wrong so don't follow me. 29th December 2008, 01:46 #138 (permalink) JulieFlyGal Date: Dec 2006 Location: aussie land Age: 21 Posts: 111 Just wondering if anyone can help with this. I'd like to calculate the total fuel required on board at start up for a 1 engine inop ETP/ scenario going from, say YAAA to YBBB. YBBB is "Suitable" and no WX holding fuel is required. YAAA (the departing airport) is "Acceptable" and requires 30 minutes holding to make it "Suitable". Question is, when working out the total fuel on board that covers the 1 engine INop ETP/ requirement, do I need to carry the 30 minutes fuel for YAAA? Or do I assume the flight will go on to YBBB and therefore I don't require the 30 minutes holding?

29th December 2008, 02:56 #139 (permalink) Lasiorhinus Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Quote: Originally Posted by JulieFlyGal Just wondering if anyone can help with this. I'd like to calculate the total fuel required on board at start up for a 1 engine inop ETP/ scenario going from, say YAAA to YBBB. YBBB is "Suitable" and no WX holding fuel is required. YAAA (the departing airport) is "Acceptable" and requires 30 minutes holding to make it "Suitable". Question is, when working out the total fuel on board that covers the 1 engine INop ETP/ requirement, do I need to carry the 30 minutes fuel for YAAA? Or do I assume the flight will go on to YBBB and therefore I don't require the 30 minutes holding? Got a real sense of de-ja vu on this question...

But you MUST carry the 30 minute holding fuel. What would happen if you are about 5 minutes on the YAAA side of the critical point, and had an engine failure. Would you have enough fuel to press on to YBBB and land, reserves intact? No, you wouldnt, because you have only planned OEI from your critical point. So you have to turn around and go back to YAAA, which has a 30 minute holding requirement. Don't try to get cheeky and use the 30 minute holding fuel for YAAA as "extra" fuel to get you to YBBB. Doesn't work like that. 29th December 2008, 03:07 #140 (permalink) ReverseFlight

Date: Nov 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 576 Lasiorhinus is correct. In any ETP/, that's the point where pushing ahead to your destination requires the same time as coming back to your departure airport. In case you go OEI just before the ETP/, you will return and will be required to have the 30 mins WX holding as reserve. If you push ahead as Lasiorhinus said, even though you may have enough fuel to land, you will not have your reserves intact, and that's against the rules. This thread just refuses to die, doesn't it ? 4th March 2009, 23:35 #141 (permalink) Vince206 Date: Apr 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 4 Thread still going? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hey guys great thread - not sure if any of you guys are still keeping an eye on it but if so, thanks for all the great tipps! Got a question though. Working on some practice exams, and seem to be stuck at a question that's almost embarrassing... I think I must be missing somethign really obvious! Q uestion is something like (don't want to infringe any copyrights...) FL310, GW 68t, ISA+10, M0.82. OEI Max Alt is? 22400ft, 25800ft, 27200ft or 26400ft. I interpolated and picked 27200, which apparently is wrong though. Any ideas why?? The thing that throws me out is the M0.82. does that really matter?? I thought OEI is LRC anyway? I figured it was just a useless piece of info, just to throw you off a bit... or am I actually ment to cruise at this speed?? Hope someone's still reading the post

Cheers Vince

5th March 2009, 00:20 #142 (permalink) ryda

Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 41 OEI altitude capability page 5-6. Hope that helps.

5th March 2009, 00:25 #143 (permalink) aviator777 Date: Jun 2004 Location: Australia Posts: 27 Interpolation -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bit rusty now that the exam is behind me, but using Table 5.2 I would not pick 27200 either. Check your interpolation calculations.

5th March 2009, 00:40 #144 (permalink) ryda Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 41 I got 26420 if you were wondering. 5th March 2009, 01:05 #145 (permalink) JulieFlyGal Date: Dec 2006 Location: aussie land Age: 21 Posts: 111 Yes, I got 26420 as well. The M0.82 and FL310 data is the situation before the 1 engine inop state. It's useful data if the temperature is given as TAT and you need to find the ISA deviation from the M0.82 tables (which is not the case in this question because you were already given the ISA deviation as +10)

5th March 2009, 03:11 #146 (permalink) biggles7374 Date: Sep 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 135 Not got the 'Blue book' to hand, but in this type of question you will also need to consider direction of travel select an appropriate 1Einop cruise altitude from the hemispherical rules table as often two of the answers suggest an easterly direction and two suggest a westerly one. Although considered an abnormal op only depressurisation allows departure from the prescribed levels. the nearest answer may not always be correct.

5th March 2009, 04:23 #147 (permalink) Vince206

Date: Apr 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 4 thanks for the replies guys... probably interpolated into the wrong direction or something similarly silly. still at work unfortunately and don't have the book on me (although it feels like I know every page on a personal level by now) but there'll be another study night tonight and figuring out what I've done wrong. Vince 5th March 2009, 07:06 #148 (permalink) Swift6

Date: Mar 2006 Location: Somewhere up there Posts: 45 Interpolating this example step by step. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I had a bit of trouble with interpolation to begin with but it made sense after a while. **This is how I do it, it seems to make sense to me perhaps someone else has a less confusing way of doing it. I'd start by minusing the 65 tonne alt from the 70 tonne alt. 25500-27800= -2300 divide the -2300 by 5 (difference between 65 and 70) multiply it by 3 (3 tonnes 68t-65t) = -1380

then add it to the lower 65 tonne altitude : -1380 + 27800 = 26420 I hope this helps.

5th March 2009, 07:22 #149 (permalink) WannaBeBiggles Date: Mar 2006 Location: Victoria, Australia Age: 29 Posts: 365 Glad to see this thread is still alive and well, and most of all helping some people!!! Ok, I feel rather rusty, BUT, in exam situations (when you are short of time) I'd take the 68 as being half way between the two values (70t @ +10 25500 and 65t @ +10 27800) and just weigh it to the heavier as it favors the heavier side. So a basic (25500 + 27800) / 2 = 26650 and then just favor the lower altitude because you are heavier, which in this case is 26400. Or if you want to do it correctly just apply do ((25500 - 27800) / 5) * 3 + 27800 Which is 26420. Either way works though the shortcut can put you in no-mans- land in an exam, so beware. Also, make sure you read the question, it could quite well ask for the lowest allowable flight level, and given that you were flying 310, 260 would not be legal. Haha, noticed Swift beat me to it posting the full interpolation method 5th March 2009, 07:56 #150 (permalink) Vince206 Date: Apr 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 4 Thanks Swift and WBB... I do cope with interpolation, just not with applying it into the right direction apparently Got the same by now. Was one of the last questions I did last night and must have hit a mental barrier. Thanks again for all the replies! Back to the books for more... hoping to sit it in 2 weeks! Vince

5th March 2009, 09:10 #151 (permalink) WannaBeBiggles

Date: Mar 2006 Location: Victoria, Australia Age: 29 Posts: 365 Anytime! This is the hardest exam I've ever had to sit, missed out the first time but scored 96% on the next attempt. Good luck Vince! 5th March 2009, 11:50 #152 (permalink) Vince206

Date: Apr 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 4 That really sounds encouraging ... well, I'll hope for the best! Anyway, kinda stuck on another question... PNR(OEI) this time. More procedural actually, I'm not quite sure what I'm expected to assume or approximate here! Would appreciate some enlightenment... Flight AD-BN via T77 & Y340. Ramp weight 76,600 kg, FOB @ startup 13,450 kg, Planned ETI 138min, FL - highest available, M0.79. Assuming an engine failure at PNR(OEI), Distance AD to PNR(OEI) and FOB on landing at AD are 485 nm and 2677 kg 465 nm and 2664 kg 565 nm and 2664 kg 420 nm and 2650 kg For a start, all my books seem to assume an in- flight calculation; this doesn't really look like in-flight, does it?? So do I have to plan climb & descent? Usually I wouldn't plan the descent for the PNR calculation as advised in the handbook, but in this case? Thanks again. Vince 6th March 2009, 02:06 #153 (permalink) training wheels Date: Dec 2000 Location: Surabaya Posts: 588 Vince, yes this is a pre- flight planning question so when calculating your flight fuel available for the 1 Engine Inop PNR, make sure you include the 100 kg of taxi fuel. And yes, you plan for climb and cruise to the PNR under normal operations, then back to AD under 1 Engine Inop operations. You'll need to decide the FL to return on based on your GW at the PNR and also use hemispherical levels.

Flight Planning is a very interesting subjet, but IMHO, CASA makes it deliberately confusing. 6th March 2009, 02:23 #154 (permalink) WannaBeBiggles Date: Mar 2006 Location: Victoria, Australia Age: 29 Posts: 365 Always read the question twice. In this case it tells you the fuel at startup, so subtract Taxi, work out climb, your MZW and PNR and return based at on the alt capability for 1-INOP and your return 1-INOP.

15th March 2009, 02:56 #155 (permalink) Lasiorhinus Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 What gets you a , is putting in the effort, studying properly, putting in the effort, doing lots of practise, and oh yes.. putting in the effort.

15th March 2009, 10:07 #156 (permalink) WannaBeBiggles

Date: Mar 2006 Location: Victoria, Australia Age: 29 Posts: 365 I' heard of people cheating in exams (mainly law and IREX), but you're only cheating yourself! And if you get caught out, kiss all of your previous exam es goodbye! All it takes to these exams is some hard work, stop being LAZY, knuckle down and get it out of the way! 23rd March 2009, 10:21 #157 (permalink) brissydriver Date: Mar 2009 Location: SEQLD Posts: 5 Hi All I did flight planning today and just missed out on ing. It seems that time can be a big issue , and maybe some more hard work on my behalf ,does anyone have any tips.

23rd March 2009, 22:20 #158 (permalink) WannaBeBiggles Date: Mar 2006 Location: Victoria, Australia Age: 29 Posts: 365 Brissy, I missed out first shot, stings a bit, but just get back on the proverbial horse and keep at it, it's just a matter of getting your speed and accuracy up. I actually went and sat performance, nav and systems and then revisited planning, with just under two weeks of solid study. Not sure if doing the others gave me a "fresh" mind, or if it would have been better to do the re-sit immediately, but it worked for me. I don't think anyone will disagree with me here when I say this is the hardest exam you will sit (except maybe when you get to a type rating). Don't give up hope mate. I've heard of a guy failing 7 times before he nailed it, who's now flying for an airline. 24th March 2009, 00:24 #159 (permalink) Zoomy Date: Mar 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 135 N ice little money spinner for CASA and ASL. $65 * 7 = $455 for CASA $110 * 7 = $770 for ASL even if everyone repeats only once theres someones wage for the year. I wonder what the overheads are for these exam centres. Anyhow I have to agree with biggles. Fresh mind, up the stamina and accuracy and you WILL get over the line. I saw a guy once sitting FP while I was doing another exam, he had 2 cans of red bull, I don't know whether it helped him or not.

24th March 2009, 13:37 #160 (permalink) brissydriver Date: Mar 2009 Location: SEQLD Posts: 5 Cheers guys , thanks for the advice.

18th April 2009, 14:50 #161 (permalink) ReverseFlight

Date: Nov 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 576 Shaun-356, as you know, the FP examiners have a large question bank from which they can extract questions and it would be somewhat difficult to the exact content of questions from the exam, given their length and complexity. However, if you can get a hold of AFT's course, many of its exercises and practice exams are as close to the actual thing as you can obtain commercially on the open market. 26th April 2009, 09:49 #162 (permalink) Hornet2000 Probationary PPRuNer Date: Apr 2009 Location: Melbourne Age: 22 Posts: 2 MyNameIsIs, "From memory the big questions are worth 4 or 5 marks, and are all toward the end- fun things like PNRs, ETPs etc. Do these big mark ones first (and hopefully correctly). After the practice exams youll have an idea on how long each of these take- then allow yourself say 10-15 minutes per each of these. If you don't have the answer, move to the next one. Don't dwell on them if you are stuck, move on and come back little later. Then work down through the lesser mark questions. It's more likely quicker and easier to discount and guess from a 1-2 mark question. Also, if you guess and get wrong a 5 marker as opposed to a 1-2 marker, the impact to your end result is a lot worse! That's my tip!" I dont agree with this, i did flight planning recently, took 2 shots at it....first time i did wat you said attempted the 4-5 markers first in order to get them out of the way, but what happened to me was that i was getting worried i was spending so much time or i wasnt doing something right and it got me all nervous, once i was finished all the 4-5 markers i was in such a "blank" minded state that when i attempted teh first questions i was second guessing myself.. My point is that the first few qns (1,2,3 markers) are to get you in the stride of things, getting your brain working and firing, then you can attempt the big ones...thats how i ed the second time.

26th April 2009, 11:14 #163 (permalink)

Mr. Hat Date: Dec 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,518 best trick i learned wa go to h****s on the sunny coast.!!

26th April 2009, 16:24 #164 (permalink) ReverseFlight Date: Nov 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 576 From what I of the exam, the 5- markers contained a lot of data to weigh you down but the 2-3 markers were really nasty - these looked simple enough but usually harbour a very nasty sting in the tail beware !

5th May 2009, 23:52 #165 (permalink) Shadowfromthesky Date: Mar 2008 Location: Australia, Victoria Posts: 29 Just ed the Flight Planning exam!! Found many of the hits and advice in this thread useful Cheers Guys. I started with the hard questions first, basically worked backwards through the exam. Thought this worked well as by the time you get near the end and you have had enough after over 2 n half hours you only have little 1-2 markers left! You do have to work relatively fast as the 3 hours goes quick, the time allocations per questions posted in this thread work quite well. The most import advice on this exam is to just do the work. After learning the material I spent an extra 1 and a half weeks just completeing practice exams and it paid off. Good luck to anyone else sitting the exam. Shadow.

6th May 2009, 01:40 #166 (permalink) Pilotette Date: Jul 2008 Location: Up the Creek without a paddle... Posts: 164 I have just received the AFT course notes and started studying for Flight Planning and am quickly beginning to realise that it may just be better to go up and do the course...Before I make this decision I was just

wondering what a realistic time-frame would be for self-studying...how long did it take you? I'm working 4 days a week so I'm thinking it may take a while before I'm up to testing standard! Cheers, P

6th May 2009, 02:25 #167 (permalink) Shadowfromthesky

Date: Mar 2008 Location: Australia, Victoria Posts: 29 Took me about 6 weeks with full time uni and work, using the AFT notes and a few other notes. Shadow.

28th May 2009, 04:51 #168 (permalink) Colonel Mustard Probationary PPRuNer

Date: Mar 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1 Have seen lots on this thread about SGR approximations etc but what I'm really having trouble with is getting the GSpeeds accurate enough. By the time I've combined the RSWT, the wind computer and the tracks. I always seem to be a few knots different on GS from the AFT model answers which is giving me the wrong zone fuel and throwing the final answer out. Anyone else having trouble with winds and any tips in this department?

19th March 2010, 03:47 #169 (permalink) Aeroo Date: Jul 2008 Location: Hiding under my bed Posts: 25 I'm currently studying this subject, and am very glad I found this thread. I haven't got all the way through yet, I'm currently doing the and PNR examples, and was wondering if anyone could answer a question for me (actually, I'll probably end up asking a lot of questions, but we'll start with this one!). For some questions, I've noticed they don't bother putting in the crosswind-caused headwind component (probably because it isn't very significant), but at other times they do (even if it's just 2 kt, which is what I've worked it out to be at times when they don't include it). So my question is - is there a guideline to follow to figure out if the crosswind-caused headwind component is big enough to mention on the flightplan (and therefore adjust the groundspeed)?

Also, just as a side question, I followed what people said to expect for question topics, and figure that there'll be a few and PNR questions in the depressurised and 1 engine in-op configurations, but are questions on gear down scenarios and inoperative yaw damper common? Thanks! 19th March 2010, 04:18 #170 (permalink) White and Fluffy Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sydney Posts: 54 Syd - Mel Gear down, maintenance ferry flight is a common question. Also think about failed gear retraction, subsequent hold to burn fuel and return to land type questions. Get a pack of multi coloured highlighters and every time you do a practice question use a different colour on that route. There are only so many city pairs that they can use and you will see similar ones in the exam to the AFT practice questions. My advise on order of questions is to start with two 1 mark questions to calm the nerves, then do a big question, then to rest the brain come back to another 1 mark, then back to the another big one and so on. I have taught this front/back method of attempting the questions for a while and it seems to work for most people. As it helps to stop you getting bogged down in the big ones if you try them first or running out of time if you leave them until last. The best piece of advice is to develop a process and use it the same way for every practice question you do. Be very neat and write all the numbers down as you go on your flight plan, even for the 1 markers do a line on the flight plan. If you try to do it all on the calculator and your answer doesn't match theirs then you have nothing to check or go over if you haven’t neatly written it all down. You have pages of flight plans so use them!

19th March 2010, 06:29 #171 (permalink) training wheels Date: Dec 2000 Location: Surabaya Posts: 588 Q uote: Originally Posted by White and Fluffy The best piece of advice is to develop a process and use it the same way for every practice question you do. Be very neat and write all the numbers down as you go on your flight plan, even for the 1 markers do a line on the flight plan. Yes, I totally agree with this piece of advice. Use the flight plan form for even the 1, 2, 3 mark questions. It will help you to organise your thought processes on paper and will most probably save you time because of that.

The biggest issue for me in Flight Planning was having enough time to finish all the questions. If you can get familiar with the type of calculator ASL uses, especially in of using the memory store and recall functions, this will help to save time, as well as reduce the chances of keying errors. I believe AFT sells these calculators on their online shop for this exact reason.

19th March 2010, 08:26 #172 (permalink) The Green Goblin Date: Nov 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,300 From memory if the Xwind correction for GS is less than 5 knots don't worry. If it's more then factor it in. with the gear down stuff to add the penalties for climb and descent! You will get a gear down question, an engine failure and diversion from 1500 feet, at least 2 PNRs, and an ETP ( the ETP always moves into wind and the wind is always from the west, if only one answer moves into wind, then that is the one! Just make sure you check if the answer is the distance from departure or destination, this can catch you out!) Practice practice practice, flight planning is not hard, just make sure you are methodical and practice practice practice! 19th March 2010, 11:21 #173 (permalink) Zoomy

Date: Mar 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 135 Q uote: The biggest issue for me in Flight Planning was having enough time to finish all the questions. I found exactly the same thing. Also, spend just a few moments in a relaxed state and read the question find out just exactly what it is they want. I found myself working a question all the way through only to find out I had answered it after the first couple of calcs. ie keep going back a make sure you know what it is they want.

19th March 2010, 14:31 #174 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31

Posts: 544 So stoked to see this thread revived. It was this very thread and the people I met through it which got me through the crucible that is Flight Planning.

Quote: is there a guideline to follow to figure out if the crosswind-caused headwind component is big enough to mention on the flightplan I could not (and still cannot) help but correct for Effective TAS but I found that this always under two knots in Air Speed and three knots in GS (the difference between the two comes in rounding I've decided). Unless you are super retentive you shouldn't worry about it (likewise I found that calculating TAS I was always between 1 and 1.5 knots faster than the published answer as well as the Flight-Computer derived answer). Long live AFPL; C ASA's most positive contribution to the safety of air navigation. FRQ CB 19th March 2010, 16:16 #175 (permalink) Lasiorhinus

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Using a whizz wheel with the sliding bit of metal in it, the E6B, for your wind calculations will help. It does the ETAS calculation for you, because the lines are curved.This way it's never an extra calculation, and by always having it done, theres never a question of when you should use it, or when you should not. You'll still need a Jeppesen C R computer for the Mach number and temperature calculations, but you can take both into the exam.

Most of the time, for some reason, doing the exact same problem on both computers will give you two answers one knot apart. That's close enough, it doesnt matter which one you use. 22nd April 2010, 06:00 #176 (permalink) Aeroo Date: Jul 2008 Location: Hiding under my bed Posts: 25 Yeah, I know, I'm dredging up the thread again! Sat the exam for the first time earlier this week, so I wanted to say thanks for the advice given to me, and also hand out some. My exam had 17 questions: 2 one- markers, 1 four-marker, 3 five-markers, and the rest were 2 & 3 markers (can't how many of each, sorry!). When I did practice exams, for the first one I went through the

harder questions first, then did the rest, but for other practice exams I just went through all the questions in order, and I found I liked that way better, so that's how I handled the actual exam. Guess it depends on personal preference! I spent a bit of time memorising the distances between the usual suspects (eg Bris - Mel 764nm), and would you believe it - none of them came up! One thing that I will warn you about: the missing distances that would normally be found on TAC charts and provided to the exam sitter, were also sometimes missing off the exam question (eg. Melbourne to Canty). Happening once I would understand, but three times I thought was a bit slack! I just used my trusty dividers to guesstimate the distances, and luckily it seemed to have worked out, as I ended up over-excelling by 30%. Good luck to anyone else sitting!

22nd April 2010, 12:43 #177 (permalink) Roxy_Chick_1989 Date: Feb 2010 Location: Canberra, ACT Posts: 52 How does ATPL flight planning compare to L flight planning/operations? Does it even compare?

22nd April 2010, 12:47 #178 (permalink) manymak Date: Dec 2008 Location: Australia Posts: 98 Quote: How does ATPL flight planning compare to L flight planning/operations? Does it even compare? Not a chance! 22nd April 2010, 12:58 #179 (permalink) The Green Goblin Date: Nov 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 1,300 Quote: Originally Posted by roxy How does ATPL flight planning compare to L flight planning/operations? Does it even compare?

bahahahahahaha PPRuNe post of the year to Roxy!

22nd April 2010, 13:10 #180 (permalink) PLovett

Date: May 2002 Location: Permanently lost Posts: 878 Roxy, L flight planning/operations, from what I can , actually had some useful stuff. ATPL flight planning is all about preparing a fuel plan that no-one actually uses in real life (even the remaining B727 operators) and certainly don't prepare in the way the subject is examined. It is a purely theoretical exercise that can be happily forgotten immediately once the exam is ed. It has absolutely no practical application. Roxy, just seen your further question. I have had friends who have self-studied it successfully. However, they had ive partners who allowed them to have time during the evening to study. When I tried to self-study I hit a brick wall and in the end I had to go to AFT and do the course there. You do learn a lot of exam tricks by going there which you don't get in the notes. It is also a great place to network. The rest of the subjects can be self-studied satisfactorily with possible exception of Systems. 22nd April 2010, 14:32 #181 (permalink) training wheels Date: Dec 2000 Location: Surabaya Posts: 588 Q uote: Originally Posted by Roxy_C hick_1989 Well, what i really should of asked was, how well prepared would you be for this exam, by purely self studying using 'A******n T****y C****e' books? Roxy mate .. I don't want to come across as a smarty ass .. but as far as I know, Aviation Theory Centre doesn't offer ATPL Flight Planning ..well, not when I did it anyway which was 12 months ago. I did the AFT Flight Planning course by self-study and missed out on my first attempt, but ed on my second. So yes, it can be done. It's probably the hardest of all exams you'll ever do, not so much because of the content, but because you'll be under the pump right from the start to get all questions done accurately. Good luck with it all! 22nd April 2010, 14:32 #182 (permalink) Roxy_Chick_1989

Date: Feb 2010 Location: Canberra, ACT Posts: 52 Thanks for the informtive post PLovett. 22nd April 2010, 15:15 #183 (permalink) ozblackbox Date: May 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 50 Just study as hard as you can for the Flight Planning. Know where to find stuff in your B727 manual. I sat planning years ago and found it very difficult - failed. I was offered a job on the venerable B727 a few years ago and flew the old girl for two and a half years and loved every moment of it. Finished my ATP's last year with AFT and found flight planning just as hard as when I first sat it many years ago. Having flown the 72 helped a little as a lot of figures were and are similar. Real aircraft we worked in Pounds and C ASA work in K ilos. The CASA 727 extract is just part of the actual manual anyway. Just forget about the aircraft - if it was based on an A320, A330, B737, B767 the technique for solving the problems remain the same, only the values change. The method for calculating a PNR, for example, is the same no matter what aircraft you fly. Also Flight Planning and Performance and Loading are seperate exams. Good luck. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited by ozblackbox : 23rd April 2010 at 07:42. 22nd April 2010, 16:13 #184 (permalink) training wheels

Date: Dec 2000 Location: Surabaya Posts: 588 Q uote: Originally Posted by Roxy_C hick_1989 Training wheels, according to the 'A******n T****y C****e' website they sell a book: Aeroplane Performance, Planning & Loading for the Air Transport Pilot (B727)

Is that for the ATPLflight planning. Sure is cheap compared to the >$600 with other suppliers. Roxy, ATPL Performance and Loading is a separate subject altogether from Flight Planning. Not to worry, though ..I didn't know this either until I started studying for the ATPLs.

30th April 2010, 10:06 #185 (permalink) Sillo777 Date: Apr 2010 Location: WA NT depends on the day Posts: 11 Well I just missed out on flight planning today, wish I could say otherwise... With the new tagging rules it remains to be seen how many minutes I will burn on the next attempt by relying only on the 727 hanbook index looking for the correct page and the old grey matter, although it seems to be just the odd weird item hiden away that will suck up 1 or 2 min's... Sadly time was the reason I missed out today, well thats what I think, maybe my view will change after a few more practise Q,s Just found this thread and had a quick read through,some good tips, but if you can't tag and you can't write distances on charts(which I didn't do anyway) where are the time savings? Are you allowed to highlight main routes on the charts or is this a no no. I wouldn't want my chart taken off me just because of a highlight? 30th April 2010, 12:18 #186 (permalink) j3pipercub

Date: Oct 2003 Location: Dark Side OF Moon Or SE Q ld Age: 27 Posts: 942 Gotta love the royal 'we'. Roxy, concentrate on the L stuff. Silo, As far as highlighting, I have heard it depends on the envigilator, and some can see a 4H pencil, some cannot. I tagged, but in the exam I didn't even refer to the notes, as I had used the book that often. I was out after 1hr 40mins after checking once. It just comes down to speed. Good luck on your second attempt. Keep trying the practice exams, you will know the book by heart in no time! j3

30th April 2010, 13:04 #187 (permalink) Sillo777 Date: Apr 2010 Location: WA NT depends on the day Posts: 11 Hopefully second sitting I will be more speedy. Used AFT by self study, ed all other atpl but Met and this one, all ed first go self study. Basiclly stuffed up looking back at it know, I heard about the tag change and thought may as well give the exam a bash before the change. O nly problem was I had only really just got into the subject after two weeks. I had finished the revision tests and some practise cyber exams which where all fine, but not fast enough in the actual exam and got sucked in by a few red herrings. Oh well looks like back to the books for another 2 or 3 weeks, I will not make the same mistake again, I have some rough notes on a couple of questions which I will post tomorrow, like at point A your are a set GW with 1EIOP and ATC reques a climb to higher level say FL280, calc TOD GW??

30th April 2010, 13:05 #188 (permalink) maverick22

Date: Sep 2000 Location: Brisbane Posts: 128 Q uote: according to the 'A******n T****y C****e' website they sell a book: Aeroplane Performance, Planning & Loading for the Air Transport Pilot (B727) Roxy, ATC does sell said book, but at the end of the day that's all it is - just a text book on the subject. I personally found it very hard going to just read the book cover to cover and get a grasp of the content. AFT on the other hand provide a self study course, not just reference material. They guide you through the material and provide worked examples, revision questions, practise exams, tips and all the help (via email and over the phone) you could possibly need to the exam and have a sound understanding of the principles. AFT is the way to go and worth it's weight in gold! ATC books look good on your library shelf and are great to refer back to later on once you havee ed the exams and are revising/studying for an interview etc. 30th April 2010, 14:39 #189 (permalink) FRQ Charlie Bravo

Date: Feb 2007 Location: ʎɐqƽ uo pɹɐoqʎƽȮ ɐ ʎnq ı ƽǿıʇ ʇsɐ‫ ן‬ƽǵȗ sı sıɥʇ Age: 31

Posts: 544 Don't them, beat them. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hmmm, you've got 15 minutes of practice exam time. Maybe use this time to rip up one of your five supplied pieces of scrap paper to make some book marks to act as tags. Highlight the corners of the appropriate pages (those which would otherwise be tagged) a certain colour before sitting then put page markers there. I think it's a ridiculous change in rules, at least for ATPL Flight Planning. FRQ CB

1st May 2010, 01:55 #190 (permalink) training wheels Date: Dec 2000 Location: Surabaya Posts: 588 Q uote: Originally Posted by maverick22 Roxy, ATC does sell said book, but at the end of the day that's all it is - just a text book on the subject. I stand corrected.. looks like that book does cover Flight Planning so my apologies to you Roxy. But as mentioned above,it does look like a good book for reference purposes as opposed to a complete course with practice exercises after each chapter and practice exams etc. I can't how much AFT were charging the flight planning course but it was well worth it. Their notes were very good and the email I got from them when I was stuck was great as well. I have to agree with what's mentioned above about no tagging of the B727 manual. Tagging would have saved me a few minutes of flipping through the manual trying to find the right pages. I finished the last question with just a few seconds to spare; so a few minutes could have made the difference between a and a fail in this subject. 1st May 2010, 16:48 #191 (permalink) Sillo777 Date: Apr 2010 Location: WA NT depends on the day Posts: 11 Quoted from the casa page.. As the purpose of tags is to swiftly and precisely locate a selected number of the more- frequently referenced sections in publications, So we know where these pages are and just want to get there quickly, any problem with that.

Oh well its just an exam, maybe next year doc's will need to be on recycled paper as a carbon offset who knows?

11th May 2010, 04:52 Statiort

#192 (permalink)

Date: Jul 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 20 If you study without the tags, you don't need them. Pages you need to : 3 - 106 4- 3 4- 4 Chapter 5 (easy to flick through) 2 - 2A Cruie tables Highlight important info in chapter 1 and flick through to it. If you havn't memorised these back to front by the time you get to the exam, you havn't studied enough. 29th July 2010, 03:13 Andy05

#193 (permalink)

Date: May 2007 Location: Australia Age: 27 Posts: 40 I sat fligth planning today and failed, I have been using AFT material, well I need to keep studying. Good luck to others doing there exams. Andy05 30th July 2010, 12:03 WannaBeBiggles

#194 (permalink)

Date: Mar 2006 Location: Victoria, Australia Age: 29 Posts: 365 Don't worry too much andy, FP is THE hardest (CASA( exam you will do IMHO, I failed the first time but came close to acing it second time around. Just work on your interpolation and your speed and you will be set! Chin up, you're almost there 17th August 2010, 12:04 #195 (permalink) ILS23L

Probationary PPRuNer Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Zealand Age: 25 Posts: 2 TMN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------I am wondering if anyone can shed some light on a question I have. I sat flight planning a couple of months ago unsuccessfully and I ‘m re-sitting it again next week. In my last exam I had 2-3 questions where the cruise schedule in the exam information was given as a True Mach Number. For example cruising at 0.8 TMN and FL 350, OAT is -60C. The flight planning data in the B727 Manual is referenced to Indicated Mach Number so obviously a conversion is needed. I have been through the theory notes that I am using and have found no mention of True Mach Number or how to convert it to Indicated Mach Number. I also spent some time going through the C R3 manual. Can anyone enlighten me on how to convert True Mach Number to Indicated using the CR3 or otherwise? Cheers in advance, 23L

17th August 2010, 12:53 #196 (permalink) Lasiorhinus Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Quote: Originally Posted by ILS23L Can anyone enlighten me on how to convert True Mach Number to Indicated using the CR3 or otherwise?

Close enough to the same thing. Certainly no difference in the exam. Genghis had a good post on this a few years ago. Indicated Mach versus True Mach Number

18th August 2010, 07:20 #197 (permalink) Andy05 Date: May 2007 Location: Australia Age: 27 Posts: 40 thank you guys for all your tips I really appreciated it. I sat Flight planning today and ed it. Thats it all ATPL's completed, it's a great feeling knowing I dont need to go back to that exam room. Thanks again Andy05

18th August 2010, 11:11 #198 (permalink) Lasiorhinus

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Congratulations! It's a good feeling to be done with them!

18th August 2010, 11:46 #199 (permalink) ILS23L Probationary PPRuNer Date: Jan 2007 Location: New Zealand Age: 25 Posts: 2 TMN -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Thanks Lasiorhinus for pointing me in the right direction, thats a big relief that I don't need to commit anything more to memory. Cheers again. 23L

19th August 2010, 00:47 #200 (permalink) 57GoldTop

Date: Feb 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 41 I wish I did not have to do this exam again but I am going to re-do it in a couple of weeks time, hopefully with more positive results and better prepared for all the 5 x two markers that caught me out.. they did not seem very similar to any 2 mark practice questions I have ever seen before. Just lots of irrelevant figures thrown at me in order to bog me down and to get me second guessing myself.... Good luck to anyone reading who may have to do this exam soon. Cheers.

19th August 2010, 03:01 #201 (permalink) Professional Amateur

Date: Jun 2010 Location: Sydney Age: 29 Posts: 11 My 2 cents -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Im glad I'm done and will never have to do this bad boy again! My down fall was practicing with a different calculator than the one they supply. The logic was different and the buttons in different locations, hence my muscle memory was out. My tip is to pay the $20 for the same one they supply.....it takes the pain out of redoing calclation after calculation after pressing the wrong button or pressing the Sqrt button in the wrong sequence!! Enjoy 19th August 2010, 04:17 #202 (permalink) StoffelN Z

Date: May 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 12 Quote:

Im glad I'm done and will never have to do this bad boy again! My down fall was practicing with a different calculator than the one they supply. The logic was different and the buttons in different locations, hence my muscle memory was out. My tip is to pay the $20 for the same one they supply.....it takes the pain out of redoing calclation after calculation after pressing the wrong button or pressing the Sqrt button in the wrong sequence!! Enjoy Agreed. I sat it yesterday and it was a shock to the system using the supplied calculator compared to the calculator on my iPhone... Took a few seconds on the first few calculations to make sure I was hitting the right buttons. If you don't have access to that calculator then I suggest running through a few practice calculations on the calculator during the practice exam time just to get your eye in. Having said that I ed, what a range of emotions to go through between hitting that submit button and the result coming up! Also its been said before, but make sure you're on top of your time management. I didn't manage mine too well and only had a minute or two to go through some of the answers I wasn't sure on.. In that short time I managed to find a question where I had pulled the wrong fuel flow from the book and subsequently had put down the wrong answer.. Leave time at the end to check your work

22nd August 2010, 06:52 #203 (permalink) boltz Date: May 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 33 I'm doing ATPL flight planning study and have one question. What fuel is required for 'yaw damper inoperative', 'operation with tailskid extended' and 'landing gear extended' operations? They are all listed under Section 5 - Abnormal Operations of the B727 Handbook so I'm guessing you use the abnormal fuel requirements eg. no traffic holding. But what about IN TERs and TEMPOs? You don't need holding fuel for depressurised operations but you do for 1 engine inoperative. So what about the other abnormal operations? eg. yaw damper inoperative. My guessing they would need the same as normal ops except for no traffic holding. Thanks 22nd August 2010, 07:46 #204 (permalink) Mr. Hat

Date: Dec 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 1,518 Best trick ever: Go to Nathan Higgins.

22nd August 2010, 12:53 #205 (permalink) 57GoldTop

Date: Feb 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 41 Quote: I'm doing ATPL flight planning study and have one question. What fuel is required for 'yaw damper inoperative', 'operation with tailskid extended' and 'landing gear extended' operations? They are all listed under Section 5 - Abnormal Operations of the B727 Handbook so I'm guessing you use the abnormal fuel requirements eg. no traffic holding. But what about IN TERs and TEMPOs? You don't need holding fuel for depressurised operations but you do for 1 engine inoperative. So what about the other abnormal operations? eg. yaw damper inoperative. My guessing they would need the same as normal ops except for no traffic holding. Yaw damper inop - 10kg / nm , same as normal operations. Tail skid extended - 11kg / nm Landing gear - 20kg / nm It will also vary based on gross weight and tail wind / headwind. Read page 1-21. 3. There may be a requirement on occasion to ferry an aeroplane in a non-standard configuration, either empty or as a revenue operation. O f the configurations listed in paragraph 2, only 2(c), 2(d) and 2(e) are permitted in this operation, and special authorization is required on each occasion. In other words that type of operation would be classed as normal ops and you would still require normal ops reserves for yaw damper inop , tail skid extended and landing gear extended. Holding fuel due to wx deteriorations would still apply also. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------Last edited by 57GoldTop : 23rd August 2010 at 06:14. 22nd August 2010, 19:53 #206 (permalink) boltz Date: May 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 33 Well I've been doing some Rob Avery practise exams and there was a question where the yaw damper failed in flight and the only way I could get the answer was if I excluded traffic holding fuel. The next question was the same but it said that the crew departed with a U/S yaw damper and knew about it. The only way I could get the answer was to again exclude traffic holding fuel.

23rd August 2010, 06:10 #207 (permalink)

57GoldTop Date: Feb 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 41 You don't need traffic holding for abnormal ops. Traffic holding requirements differ to wx holding requirements. Page 1-16A of the POH Abnormal Ops - Holding required . . . . 1) Traffic holding - need not be carried. Where an abnormal op is considered to be 1-INOP, DP, YD INOP , TS extended and LG extended. Page 1-21

24th August 2010, 14:20 #208 (permalink) 50.40.30.20.10 Date: Aug 2010 Location: Aus Posts: 5 If there is anyone around who has finished with all their: theory books/kits, airservices documents, charts etc... Please send me a PM as I may be interested in purchasing. Regards, 50.40.30.20.10 25th August 2010, 01:23 #209 (permalink) The Truckie Date: May 2003 Location: Sydney Posts: 26 Rumour has it CASA are thinking of changing the answers in the L and ATPL exams to a blank line where you write your answer in and not the multi guess A B C D way.

25th August 2010, 04:00 #210 (permalink) Lasiorhinus

Date: Feb 2003 Location: Victoria Posts: 1,214 Ha! I'll believe that when I see it, not a moment before!